Talk:Infinite Dvorak deck

This deck is perpetually under construction. If you want to join in, just add some cards to the card list.

Neat idea

This is a neat idea! As I remember cards from my gaming group's old 1000 Blank White Cards game, I'll add the ones that make sense (and probably some that don't) here. Edit: And in case you're wondering, the original cards designed for use with Full Deck were: Diamonds Are Forever, Gone Clubbing, "Cover Your Heart, Indy!", and Have Your Pet Spade or Neutered. Jtwe 21:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Well where are those other cards?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gill smoke (talk • contribs) 31st December 2007.

Tokens = Things

Wouldn't it be easier to define Tokens as created-on-the-spot Things? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zaratustra (talk • contribs).

That plays heck with game balance. For example, "Hoard"...-Bucky 06:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I get the feeling this deck is never going to be particularly "balanced".

Tokens being Things sounds like a good idea from the infinite deck perspective - if a game features one token generator card, but no cards that do anything with tokens, then there's less card interaction than there could be. Treating all "destroy a token to achieve X" cards as "destroy a token or Thing" won't hurt anyway - if the effect is tailored for an abundance of tokens, then using a non-token Thing is just an expensive alternative, which is better than the card being unusable. --Kevan 10:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)]

My problem with that is if a card says "destroy a thing or things to achive X", tokens shouldn't count, as the point was the sacrifice of things. Should we just change all cards like this, or change the rule? --fanofphilosophy

I just realized that if a token is destroyed it would be placed in the discard pile. I assume that this isn't what was meant to happen. I'll change the rule to reflect this. --Ryan 1729 02:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Cards by Bucky

[Hex:] It certainly has odd synergies with Magnitude Error. :D Zaratustra 19:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Aw. Zaratustra 20:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem was that it applied to itself. Its actual base could not be determined, since it claimed it was some base other than "10".-Bucky 20:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Land of the Immortals

Is there any way at all to destroy Land of the Immortals? It is a Thing, and thus can't be destroyed while it is in play. It would seem that only with the use of an erasing card it could be destroyed, and those are very rare.Corrigan 20:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

This is intentional. However, it can also be removed from the game or returned to someone's hand and discarded.-Bucky 20:13, 13 September 2007 (BST)

I'm glad to see your new Cards, are the corner values meant for collectors? -Gill smoke 20:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

There's no point in collecting when you can just print out any card you want. I put in the cornervalues because some of the earlier cards deal with cornervalues in letter-number format, which there haven't been many of lately.-Bucky 00:38, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

So are you going to make some new corner value manipulators?-Gill smoke 19:49, 14 April 2008 (BST)

What's with the "chained" cards, the ones that make a copy of an another card? Are you trying to nomicly get around the infinite nature of the deck? If this card exists then these supporting ones do too. It's a clever tactic. -Gill smoke 19:49, 14 April 2008 (BST)

I started by making tokens with text. Then I realized I'd run out of card space for anything complex, so I settled on using Things that make specific non-token Things. Also note that any card in the main five-card cycle will eventually let you fetch the other four.-Bucky 20:14, 14 April 2008 (BST)

French Riot

How is Frenchness or Frenchiness determined? At least the card is self referential. -Gill smoke 19:06, 7 April 2008 (BST)

To quote the rules, "If there's an ambiguity, vote on it." -Bucky 00:52, 8 April 2008 (BST)

Ultimate weapon

I'm not sure but I think your action ability is swapped with your in play effect. Tit for tat for free (who gets to use it?), Action ability to end the game? Shouldn't the in play effect be if you have no things you loose, and the 10 for 8 destroy effect be the action ability?

The owner is the only one who can use its abilities. And you can only eliminate one player per turn but can nuke any number of players if you have enough Things. -Bucky 15:44, 15 August 2008 (BST)

A Wizard Did It

Does the implied "you" at the beginning of an imperative sentence ( (you) Draw a card at the end of your turn) or inside the word Action: (Instead of playing an action, you may...) count for this card?--ChippyYYZ 19:15, 24 July 2008 (BST)

Cards by Fanofphilosophy

fanofphilosophy keeps adding cards at places other than the end of the deck. Although this is not forbidden, the order of the cards is quite useful for tracing the development of certain ideas. -Bucky 00:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

"Create a card with any number of spellin or grammer mistakes and play it under another players control." - I don't know if it was intentional (and I'm not sure how you're expecting players to be able to fix the typos), but this is an easy instant-win card. --Kevan 22:14, 27 March 2007 (BST)

Sorry. I'm working on making it fair. Ideally, this card would be printed, and thus the edits would be made with pencil and/or pen. And, yes, all the errors were intentional, except for one. --fanofphilosophy

All right, Rouf Draft is fixed. . .I think. --fanofphilosophy

Oh, okay, so "all the mistakes are fixed" means "all the mistakes are spotted by other players". That works.

Cards can be created mid-game while playing online, by the way (at least through DvorakMUSH); you don't need an exception for that. --Kevan 01:17, 28 March 2007 (BST)

With "Desperado", the player who plays it would win even if there are fewer than 50 Things to destroy, making it a straight "I Win" card.-Bucky 01:52, 28 March 2007 (BST)

Clarified. --fanofphilosophy

Gray cards

Fanofphilosophy has been making a lot of gray cards lately. However, some of them are Actions and some of them are Things, so it's getting hard to scan his cards by eye.-Bucky 23:36, 28 March 2007 (BST)

That's only because I have no idea how the bgcolor system works, or what's "normal" for a thing or action. So I made it easy and made it all grey.--fanofphilosphy

For quick reference bgcolor=600 is Action-Red and bgcolor=006 is Thing-Blue. Unless you're doing something special (like Locations and Enemies from the Mario Bros. deck), that should be enough. If you want to know how those number work, let me know and I can point you to lots of web resources. MagiMaster 02:10, 30 March 2007 (BST)

I like 709 for things and 907 for actions.Fanofphilosophy 00:46, 15 April 2007 (BST)

Good thing nobody here has daltonism. Zaratustra 01:47, 24 April 2007 (BST)

Here's a quick reference then (if this is a good place for it):

006

Color

600

Color

907

Color

709

Color

Electrician

"the text Action: now reads Once per turn, you may" isn't always going to make grammatical sense, such as with "Action: Target player may show you any number of Action cards from their hand." in Crystal Ball. It'd be easier just to say something like "you may invoke that Action for free, once per turn". (And I don't think I'd want to have to deal with the effects of a Cyborg-Electrician...) --Kevan 11:04, 2 April 2007 (BST)

It's fixed, as well as the card Person, which has a similar effect. --fanofphilosphy

Cards by Kazz

Card "Striptease" is unsuitable for online play. -Bucky 23:17, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I suppose it is. Should I be keeping that in mind? I'll delete it. For the record, it was an Action: "If you remove all of your clothing immediately, you win." Kazz 23:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Eh, that seems okay; the player would just have to somehow prove that they'd done this. --Kevan 23:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, many of the cards by Kazz, when played, instantly unbalance the game in favor of whoever played them. While other cards, such as Magnitude Error, are quite powerful, few give their owner/user the sheer power of Horde, Throne, Pet, or Customs Board.

What, if anything, should be done about this? Horde is the worst offender, because not only are 9 Tokens cheap, but its protection effect also makes it powerful even without the victory condition. Throne is overpowered because there is only one card (Antimatter) that can destroy it without permission. Customs Board basically lets you see everyone's hand. Pet is overpowered for obvious reasons.

Again, should we adjust these cards? Should we introduce counter-cards knowing that they will probably not be used in the same deck? Or should we just let it go?-Bucky 06:12, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Uhm, apologies. I was the one that informed Kazz (among others) of the existence of this page, knowing of his tendency to do this kind of thing. Zaratustra 06:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

The cards themselves are cool, they just need to be weakened. For example "Throne" would be fine if limited to negating one action per round, Horde would be fine without a victory condition (since it has a side effect of not allowing you to spend tokens) etc.-Bucky 07:06, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Given that this project is public, these cards are probably quite mild. We're bound to get straight "I win" cards coming in eventually.

Maybe we should view the card set as infinite and inevitably containing broken cards, and let players decide what subset to actually play with; the export functionality could be tweaked to allow "all cards except by this user" or "only include cards by these users". --Kevan 10:05, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure Win cards are broken. Filter choices should include filter out unMUSHable, maybe a random subset of XX cards.-gill_smoke

They're not broken, they're just boring. It's probably not worth adding a "mushable" field to all cards for the sake of a filter - a house rule that you can discard and redraw any cards that don't make any sense in your playing medium seems easy and obvious enough. --Kevan 19:56, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Cards by Kevan

Instant Speed

Does Instant Speed imply that that you could play an Action, then play another in response, then another in response to that, etc.? What about if you played a card that allowed you to draw? Would you be able to play the newly drawn cards in response to drawing them? (I'm only asking out of curiosity.) MagiMaster 18:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I suppose it does. Which isn't too powerful, but is a bit of a boring way for it to be used. I'll reword it. --Kevan 19:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Brand Loyalty

It seems that Brand Loyalty forces people to only use cards by Kevan. Perhaps it should say "except this card", or something? --fanofphilosophy

Good point. --Kevan 00:07, 29 March 2007 (BST)

Terrible Secret of Space

That last part doesn't need to be there. Robots aren't living things. CashCrazed 08:27, 30 March 2007 (BST)

It's a matter of opinion, it doesn't hurt to clarify. --Kevan 10:28, 30 March 2007 (BST)

The Element of Surprise

What if the card drawn can't be played in the current situation? --Kyevan 17:38, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Clearing the Air has the same problem, really. --Kyevan 17:39, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Good point; fixed. --Kevan 18:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Sodium Pentothal

This is possibly the most broken card in the game. It might as well read "Action:Flip a coin. If heads, target player loses the game." Except that it's more versatile than that. You can force a win in two turns. The relevant questions are: "Do I have (card X) in my hand?" (or any other question you know the answer to but they don't) and "Will you answer 'Yes' to the next question I ask you using Sodium Pentothal?" --Bucky 10:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Addendum: You can force another player to lose immediately with the question "Will I play another card this turn?" -Bucky 10:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Heh, good call. I've clarified what I was actually intending it to be used for. --Kevan 12:40, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Runaway Steamroller

Should be an action probably, not a thing. - Zt - 17:35, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I prefer it as a thing. It creates "food" for other cards, and threatens other power cards.--Gill smoke 19:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but probably as a thing it should not read: "Destroy a Thing and replace it with a Pancake token." but rather sth. like: "Each turn, destroy a thing..." or "When this comes into play..." That's all I wanted to say. - Zt - 20:00, 24. March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this was a cut-and-paste error, it was meant to be an Action. --Kevan 22:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Queue Here

Is this card meant to refer only to non-token Things in play, or actually to all of them in the deck?Binarius 11:14, 1 August 2008 (BST)

In play. If all Thing cards in the draw pile counted as a "Thing", we'd be in trouble. --Kevan 13:52, 1 August 2008 (BST)

Arms Race

Wouldn't the "at least as many" phrase allow you to continue drawing as long as you wanted? Binarius 16:27, 4 August 2008 (BST)

Not the way I'm reading it. As soon as you have as many Things as your opponent, you have "at least as many", and have to stop. If you play the card when you already have more Things than your opponent, then you'd have to stop after the first time. --Kevan 17:20, 4 August 2008 (BST)

Market Forces

Since its action costs a money token to use, this could cause a stalemate if all money tokens were somehow destroyed. Its money creation action should probably be exempt from the money requirement.
--ChippyYYZ 21:04, 3 September 2008 (BST)

Archivist

Could I as an Archivist add a comment to the page with the datetime stamp as proof ie "<-- --Gill smoke 17:46, 24 September 2008 (BST) -->"? --Gill smoke 17:46, 24 September 2008 (BST)

A manually added datetime stamp could be forged, but it should be sufficient to go into the most recently archived page's history to show that you created the page. Binarius 44:44, 31 February 1913 (QED)

Schools of Magic

"When this comes into play, each player chooses a letter. A player can only play cards that contain the letter they chose." Contain the letter in the text or in the title? - Zt, 22:53, 01. October 2008 (CET)

Oh, good call, I meant to say title. --Kevan 23:06, 1 October 2008 (BST)

Spivak Shielding

"Cards which would use the incorrect "he/she" personal pronoun against you cannot be played." Does this mean:

I'm a she, the card says he, it doesn't operate against me? or

I'm a he or a she and the card says "he/she" which is hereby declared incorrect? Goldenboots 15:37, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Both, I suppose. Referring to someone as "he/she" is using both the correct and incorrect personal pronoun, which is enough to trigger it. --Kevan 15:50, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

What about "they"? The way I read it, that's not an "incorrect 'he/she' personal pronoun" because it's neither of those... Binarius 18:04, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Bruce

"While this card is in play, the title of all non-token Things in play is 'Bruce', and all tokens are Bruce tokens instead of their normal type. Action: Put a Bruce token into play."

First, way to nerf "University of Woolloomooloo Philosophy Department" which renames a Thing to "Bruce"! Second, when Bruce - *this* Bruce - goes out of play, do tokens and cards resume their old names? The word "normal" and the phrase "while this card is in play" (which is probably unnecessary since no rules continue after the Thing they are on is out of play) suggests we have to remember what all those tokens used to be called. Goldenboots 18:49, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Oops. I only had time to skim-read today, so missed that someone had already made the joke. Good job the deck is infinite, I suppose.

Yes, all Things would resume their own names when Bruce left play. I don't see this as being a "have to remember" thing, though - the Bruceness is just continually layered on top of the gamestate, which needn't actually be changed. (You wouldn't have to bother crossing out 'Gold' and writing 'Bruce' on a dozen tokens, you'd just wait until something happened that checked what type of tokens you had, and would treat them as Bruce tokens rather than Gold tokens.) --Kevan 19:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually both UWPD and Bruce can coexist. UWPD changes the name permanently. Now I have to think of a Sheila card. Goldenboots 02:55, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Malware

I didn't invent the game or anything but when you play a card on another player they become the possessor, the "You" changes to the owner. I've used similar effects with a token creation. I get the card you get the token.

Fixed. Thank you, masked stranger. --Kevan 23:13, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Wrapping Paper

"If a Thing has a Wrapping token on it, its card text is blank. When this comes into play, put a Wrapping token on all non-token Things. When a non-token Thing comes into play, put a Wrapping token on it. Any player may take an Action to destroy a Wrapping token." This works fine as is, but note that new Things will NOT get Wrapping tokens automatically unless someone has unwrapped "Wrapping Paper" Goldenboots 21:37, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Which would be tricky when its own text was blank. Fixed. --Kevan 23:13, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Is it your intention that, if Wrapping Paper is destroyed, all the leftover Wrapping tokens hang around, attached to other things but otherwise ineffectual? --Tweed Cap 17:17, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Cards by KillSmiley

The cards "Free-For-All" and "The Dreaded Legal Department" are colored and written as Actions, but are of type Thing. This should be corrected. -Bucky 03:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Never mind, he corrected it.-Bucky 05:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Cards by Ryan_1729

Zork Dork

For Zork Dork, the card type "Quiz" is meaningless. If it's an action, a type of "Action - Quiz" would at least tell players what to do with it. --Kevan 11:25, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

alright. --Ryan 1729 11:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Win conditions

I'm guessing you've not played any Nomic - all your "create a new card but it can't have a win condition" clauses are completely toothless; it's trivial to create a card saying "other players may never take any more turns" or "draw 1000 cards and play any number of them" or, indeed, "create another new card, and this one can say anything you like". --Kevan 21:17, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, small suggestion; each and every one of your cards has text coming out of the bottom. It's a card game, not a library. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zaratustra (talk • contribs) 23:23, 9 March 2007.

Your new "this card may not allow you to win this or the next turn" wording would still be broken by a card that said "Take two more turns after this one. You win at the start of the second turn." - any card that lets you create a new card with any wording is going to have loopholes. --Kevan 12:33, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Short of removing the cards, this seems like the best solution. It gives the other players time to draw a card like "Gotcha" or otherwise stop the player from winning. --Ryan 1729 23:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

How about "Any player may discard a card to remove the new card from the game"?-Bucky

Perfect. --Ryan 1729 03:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Lock and Key

Don't forget the "cards shouldn't refer to other cards" rule - it's very unlikely that your "Lock" and "Key" cards will both be drawn in the course of the same game. (Even if you meant "a 'Key' card" to mean "any card that could be considered a key", we've yet to see any sort of key card appear in 250-odd cards, so it isn't going to be a card type that occurs very often.)

Also, you seem a bit confused about the distinction between "destroy" and "discard"; reading the glossary might help. --Kevan 10:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Spamming the deck with duplicate "Key" cards isn't a particularly interesting solution to this. --Kevan 22:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Office

"If five or more cards that count as office supplies are played on this card..." - I'm guessing we're going to get five "This card counts as an office supply." cards from you, now. Please try to think a little harder about the infinite nature of the deck, and the "cards shouldn't refer to other cards" guideline. I've just reworded it to add a useful rule of thumb - if you made a deck from a random subpage of 100 cards, and added your card to it, and your card would be completely useless, then you should think about rewording it. --Kevan 11:22, 27 March 2007 (BST)

Office is just as useless in a game with less than five office supply cards as Alphabet coup, Playing With a Full Deck, The Obliteration of All Other Life Forms, Anagrammaton, Top Trumps and Eight Men Down and a few others without the necessary cards. There are also many cards that only interact with living things and as of right now only one card exists that counts as a living thing! Although there are a few that can create them. Also it is currently possible to randomly choose a deck with no way to win or lose and with no way to end the game short of abandoning it. --Ryan 1729 23:38, 27 March 2007 (BST)

Alphabet Coup and Full Deck both have the same specificity problem, but the others all rely on card aspects that are at least fairly common. I think you've overlooked "If there's an ambiguity, vote on it." in the Special Rules for this game (which does in fact cite "living things" as an example). It's much easier to have a vague voting rule for this sort of thing, than to have to guess what sorts of qualities future cards are going to be looking for. So you could word your Office card as "If five or more Things that you would find in a normal office..." and it could include earlier and later cards (like Receipt Drawer) which weren't aware of there being an "office supply" card trait.

You're absolutely right about randomly choosing a deck with no victory condition; Zara and I tried a MUSH game with cards 201-300, and both ended up resigning when we realised how rare and difficult the victory conditions were. When I get around to writing a customised export script, I'll add something to make sure that any random selection of cards includes a good number of victory conditions. --Kevan 00:12, 28 March 2007 (BST)

I thought the idea, as far as 'counting as whatever', was that you didn't have to specify most of the time and people just voted on it if they were unsure. I wouldn't think you'd have to specify 'office supplies' on stuff like paper and staples. You might have to specify on stuff that you think should be office supplies, but not everyone might, like coffee. MagiMaster 00:11, 28 March 2007 (BST)

Obscurity pays off

This card is an "I Win" card online because everyone has access to dice of any number of sides.-Bucky 02:45, 28 March 2007 (BST)

The electronic dice rolling machine on the MUSH, you mean? It's a bit of an "I win" card regardless - the race condition of "first player to" is meaningless, as the player who's drawn the card can just look for their dice and make sure they have them ready immediately before playing the card. --Kevan 10:01, 28 March 2007 (BST)

Okay, would you rather I tapered the reward down to some amount of money or gold tokens? --Ryan 1729 00:14, 30 March 2007 (BST)

Elephant Stampede

In case anyone cares, I just looked at the Sci-Fi Fantasy deck for the first time today. The Elephant Stampede from this deck was independently thought up. --Ryan 1729 03:07, 4 April 2007 (BST)

Name Game

I don't get Name Game. How is that supposed to work? It's really confusing. --fanofphilosophy

Take the number of letters in your first name. Say... five. As long as Name Game is in play you aren't allowed to directly say that number. For example, you and some friends are playing with real cards, and there's a pile of coins to be used as tokens; you ask someone closer to the coins to pass you five of the same type. If you actually said "five" then you would have to discard a card. You wouldn't have had to discard a card if you had said "one less than six," or "two more than three" or something like that. If you have no cards then say the number you are then eliminated.

I hope this helps, it's hard to explain fully on a card. If you have any suggestions for better wording please mention it here. --Ryan 1729 02:33, 4 April 2007 (BST)

Blue Wizard

The Blue Wizard (NEEDS FOOD BADLY) is a good idea, I just don't like the time limit. I have seen very few, if any, food/food-related cards besides the one I just made. What if there are no food/food-related cards in the deck for a particular game?Fanofphilosophy 02:13, 7 April 2007 (BST)

Laundromat

This card forces each player to give you a Quarter token every turn, regardless of whether or not they use the Action, and even if they don't have any. This does not seem to be the intent of the card.-Bucky 21:23, 21 April 2007 (BST)

Cards by The T

Shovel says to draw the bottom of the deck. However, in an infinite deck such a card may not exist. Similarly, a few other cards say to search the entire deck, which we can't do since we have not defined all the cards in the deck.-Bucky 18:20, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Although the deck's theoretically infinite, any actual game of it will involve a finite subset. (I'll probably end up putting an "output just 100 random cards" option on the card export, so that this can be played on the Dvorak Engine without crashing it.) --Kevan 18:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Cards by Zaratustra

"Spend 1 Energy to produce 1 Blood." - maybe I should reword "cards shouldn't refer to other cards" to stress the infinite thing more; even if there are other cards that refer to Energy and Blood in the deck, if they don't come up in the same game then this card is meaningless, and fairly useless. (Well, usable as a generic, effectively-blank Thing, but having a blank card in the set seems a bit of a waste, when it could have had a similar but game-affecting mechanic.) --Kevan 23:49, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

"Produce 1 Blood" is fine because other cards can read "Destroy/Spend 1 liquid Thing". likewise, "Spend 1 Energy" is fine because you can use many kinds of Energy, presumably including Heat, "Lightning Bolt" cards etc.-Bucky 23:59, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, that feels like it's straying into Blank White Card territory, where anything can mean anything if you argue it entertainingly enough; although that's fun, I think it's useful to keep the distinction that Dvorak has strict and consistent rules.

Maybe it'd be good to have a general rule about resolving arbitrary decisions - whenever anything is open to interpretation (like Katamari's "smallest Thing"), it goes to a straight vote, and if there's no majority verdict then it's resolved in some generic, automatic way. But Artificial Heart's "spend 1 Energy" puts far too much onus on the players to decide what "spend 1 Energy" counts as; whether a Lightning Bolt should generate more than 1 Energy, whether Springfield Nuclear Power Station should be able to "spend 1 Energy" every single turn without destroying itself, whether a player's sweeping Plasma Storm can power someone else's Heart, etc.

"Discard or destroy an electricity-related card you control, to put a Blood counter into play." would work better, I think, with players only having to vote on whether a particular card is "electricity-related" or not. --Kevan 00:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

There, better? Zaratustra 01:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I think so. Argue this out with me if you think I've got the wrong idea about how this deck should work, though. --Kevan 01:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

"The Only Winning Move" is badly worded; For example, it allows you to win if at any point earlier in the game three other players had each skipped a turn for unrelated reasons. A better wording would be "You win the game when 3 of your turns have been skipped in this manner."-Bucky 02:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

About "The B": Are we meant to assume that if you use its Action twice, you may draw 1 card? Or are are we supposed to, say, cut the top card in the draw pile in half and put that in our hand?-Corrigan 12:21, 28 September, 2007 (UTC)

Yes. -- Zaratustra 01:50, 29 September 2007 (BST)

Does this mean that players are supposed to vote as to its meaning? -- Corrigan 10:18, 31 September 2007 (BST)

Cantor Set: This card's wording assumes a two-player game. It should be reworded to allow for a different number of players.-Bucky 06:24, 2 October 2007 (BST)

Cards by cashcrazed

Jihad

Would a player force his or her opponents to tell their religions? It would be unfair to let some tell and some not, and yet mean to force people to tell.--fanofphilosophy

I didn't figure a person's religion was any sort of personal secret. If they have a problem with revealing their religion, then I guess they just lose the Thing. CashCrazed 03:05, 30 March 2007 (BST)

Well, I agree that it probably wouldn't be a secret, but it's not something I would want brought up during a game either. MagiMaster 03:15, 30 March 2007 (BST)

The player who played it could reveal what their religion is, so the other players would just have to say whether their religion is the same or not. --Ryan 1729 04:23, 30 March 2007 (BST)

Cards by jtwe

The ironic theme is an interesting idea, but it seems that all the cards are dentrimental to the player who played them. This makes no sense from a competitve standpoint. Is this part of the joke?Fanofphilosophy 23:44, 3 May 2007 (BST)

Well, it's not really so much a "theme" as it is a handful of card titles / flavor texts from the same song. But... Ten Thousand Spoons cancels an opponent's Reaction, Rain on Your Wedding Day shuts down opponent's Actions for a turn, A Free Ride lets you play Russian Roulette or I'm Ending This risk-free, and Good Advice will give you an extra card every other turn or so. Which one is detrimental? Jtwe 01:11, 4 May 2007 (BST)

Whimsey, Turnabout Dvorak and Untap Phase

"Turnabout Dvorak" - 'tap' and 'untap' aren't defined anywhere (except possibly "Whimsey") and given that this deck is infinite, you shouldn't count on these three cards all coming up at once. -Bucky 05:44, 19 April 2008 (BST) I've played MTG so I know what tap and untap are, the average player might not. I think this is treading into Special rules category. As a matter of course while playing action abilities I tapped the card.

Tap and untap, are, in fact, not defined anywhere. This is a legitimate concern, but I was kind of assuming that enough people had played Magic the Gathering that someone at the table would know what it meant. (I should point out that at one point I wrote a card whose rules text stated "take first and advance each runner one base" and no one complained about that, so I figured I could get away with tap and untap. :) ) As for not having all three come up at once, I'm not worried about that; Untap Phase gives you an extra turn, Turnabout Dvorak is a draw two, and Whimsey, at worst, is a one-shot draw 1 or discard 1 if you control any other Thing, so they're each useful on their own, but they get better in tandem. Jtwe 02:13, 21 April 2008 (BST)

A Lead Role in a Cage

Normally at the beginning of your turn you draw a card. Do you mean this card's beginning of turn effect to be, draw an additional card? --Gill smoke 11:16, 2 October 2008 (BST)

Yes, an additional card. It probably should specify that. Jtwe 15:31, 2 October 2008 (BST)

Mana Ramp

Shouldn't Mana Ramp specify allowable land token types on creation. (perhaps parenthetically) --Gill smoke 16:20, 2 October 2008 (BST)

Nope. The only tokens it produces are Land tokens; that is, tokens named Land. If you happen to control Sherwood Forest or Mount Fuji or something they contribute to the extra Action ability too, but all you're getting from the Ramp is Land. Although, if I got rid of the mention of Plains, etc., I would have room for the flavor text, which, of course, is "YEEEEEEEEEEEE HA!" Jtwe 17:05, 2 October 2008 (BST)

I see the semantic difference now "Land, Plains, ..."--Gill smoke 03:34, 3 October 2008 (BST)

Archival

We've got 99 cards so far - maybe we should archive off every hundred into its own linked page, to stop the main page from getting too heavy. I suppose wait until we have 120 or so, so that the page doesn't look too blank when we archive it. --Kevan 12:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Almost 150 now. Zaratustra 21:07, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

There are 220 at the time of this editing --Ryan 1729 12:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks like we might have to archive this talk page sometime soon. --Ryan 1729 03:10, 4 April 2007 (BST)

Perhaps we could split it into a section on the deck itself, and a section on specific cards. Personally, I dislike archived talk pages.Fanofphilosophy 23:44, 3 May 2007 (BST)

I've noticed that the Infinite Dvorak deck now has, in its unarchived page, over 200 cards in it. This should have been split a while ago. I would do it, but I don't know how. --Corrigan 04:20, September 8 2007 (UTC)

I'll post the directions Edit the card page. At the top copy and paste the last card set ie ", \[\[\/Cards 801-900\|801-900\]\]" change to the next hundred. Select the top 100 cards and cut. save the page, click on the link you just created, paste the cards in save copy the info box from the previous hundred then edit the new set and paste the info box in. edit it for the right set and save. "easy peasy." --Gill smoke 03:35, 3 October 2008 (BST)

Infinity

Is the deck supposed to be one of each of an infinite number of cards, an infinite number of each of a finite number of cards, or an infinite number of infinitely many cards? This would effect the probability of things like getting two Annoyance cards on top of the library, etc. MagiMaster 06:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The way I see it, it's an infinite number of different cards, one each. We think of the number as infinite because there's no limit to the number of cards we can create and we'll only be playing some of all the different cards at a time anyway due to physical or engine constraints. BiggerJ 09:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

That was my thinking as well. --Kevan 12:41, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Backdoor Special Rules?

Maybe this is just me seeing things from a Nomic perspective, but cards like Rules Misunderstanding and There are 10 kinds of people in the world are Actions which create ongoing effects - effectively it's adding a special rule to the game. Is this good or bad?

It seems a bit untidy from the player memory perspective (most Dvorak decks and similar card games require that players only have to read the cards on the table to find out what's going on), and also a bit overpowered - if a Thing adds an ability or restriction to the game, there are all sorts of ways to destroy or remove or reword that Thing. But if an Action says "Until a winner ith declared all playerth mutht thpeak like thith.", there's nothing that any player can do to reverse that, unless there's a rare "terminate all background effects" card (which might never get drawn). We could spiral out into card mechanics that add and remove background effects, as we did with tokens, but should we nip it in the bud instead? --Kevan 09:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Since there is currently no penalty for breaking or forgetting these rules players could slowly faze them out with no ill effects. Also if such a card is destroyed is it still binding? --Ryan 1729 10:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

If these cards were Things, then their effects would immediately stop being binding upon destruction; Things only have an effect while they remain in play. The rules have no specific opinion about an Action that says "for the rest of the game, X", but given that the Action card doesn't say "until this card is somehow removed from the game, X", I think most players would interpret the effect as continuing. --Kevan 10:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Rules Misunderstanding has been changed. Zaratustra 14:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, in the "thpeech" card example a player could just say "I am the winner" and (depending on interpitaion) negate the effect.(Note: I did not see this possible loophole when creating this card.) We could reclassify these cards as things that are immediately moved to the discard pile after being played to achieve the same effect. (Interestingly no one has complained about my equally if not more indestructable "Catch 22" card.) --Ryan 1729 12:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Things that move immediately to the discard pile and leave a ghostly permanent effect would give exactly the same problem; you have ghostly permanent effects floating around that players have to remember the exact wording of, and which they can't do anything to destroy. It would be better to have these rules written on Things which stay in play.

(And for what it's worth, I'd say that the common-sense game rule interpretation of "all players must thpeak like thith" is "anyone who doesn't is therefore no longer a player".)--Kevan 12:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

"Catch 22" Is in fact destructable with any of {Wrath of Bucky, Brazen Buckyism, Wikipedia Says It's True} and probably others I'm not remembering.-Bucky 15:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Alphabet coup

As of addition of card "Fun Time!" it is now possible(though very unlikely) to win using card "Alphabet coup." --Ryan 1729 12:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It was possible anyway with "Pocket Universe".-Bucky 15:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Spam

Is this card too obnoxious? It would grind the game to a halt if everyone simply spent their turn drawing Spam from the top of the pile, then using their Action to put it back there for the next person. CashCrazed 09:06, 28 March 2007 (BST)

Not necessarily. Remember, there are several cards that cause the drawing of multiple cards, and others that send cards from the draw pile to the discard pile. And anyway, I don't think that players would want to continue to play Spam over and over; that would get boring pretty quickly. Corrigan 18:18, 19 September 2007 (BST)

Export problems

The 'Print this deck' and 'Generate MUSHcode' pages for this deck seem to skip certain cards for some reason. Is this fixable? BiggerJ 05:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as it seems to skip my cards, perhaps The underscore in Ryan_1729 is the problem? I'll temporairily change one of the two Switcheroos to see if that fixes it. --Ryan 1729 08:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

That didn't work. To be specific it seems to skip newer cards and all of my cards. What (if anything) is done to upgrade the 'Print this deck' and 'Generate MUSHcode' pages when new cards are created? --Ryan 1729 09:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks like it was because you were the only person to capitalise "card" at the start of each template. I've updated the export functionality to cope with this (it's an external script that I wrote myself, so there's no public access to it). --Kevan 10:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

That would be because I copied and pasted from the template each time. The price you pay for laziness I suppose. --Ryan 1729 12:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I just tried the print this deck page and noticed that "Fly on the wall" and "Action prism" had no text and type unknown. I removed some unnecessary spaces and they seem to work. --Ryan 1729 12:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Trip reports

Has anyone actually tried playing this yet? I would very much like to see descriptions of playthoughs of this game (and, if possible, transcripts of games of it played in the Dvorak MUSH engine). --BiggerJ 07:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Not yet. I'd rather wait until I changed the deck export so that it could filter out cards by specific users, but maybe I'll find time to do that today. --Kevan 12:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Time found. You can now specify a comma-separated list of users whose cards you want to skip; they'll be crossed out, and listed as "skipcard", which the Dvorak Engine should just ignore as an illegal command.

We should be able to skip individual cards, too, without excluding other cards by the same author. See "loophole" for an example.-Bucky 17:17, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, since you're cutting and pasting the cards anyway, you can put them through a text editor first, and just delete any cards you don't want to use.--Kevan 19:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

So would anybody be up for testing this in either the Dvorak MUSH Engine or Apprentice, over the next few days? --Kevan 14:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm up for it. Since you usually show up on my early afternoon, Friday and weekends are good days for me. Zaratustra 15:54, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm busy tonight and out tomorrow, but could maybe manage Sunday. I've added an upcoming games page to attempt to coordinate this sort of thing, if anyone wants to call a specific time and date. --Kevan 16:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, why would you want to leave out cards by specific people? --BiggerJ 11:45, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

If there are some broken or annoying-to-process cards in the set (I remember there being a few), then they're likely to have been written by the same person. --Kevan 19:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Have just tried feeding the entire deck into the Dvorak Engine on the newly-created Dvorak MUSH, and it choked around the 250 mark. Not sure if it's hitting a configurable limit, or something intrinsic to the TinyMUSH software, but I suppose it doesn't really hurt to play with a subset of 200 or so cards. I'll throw together something to randomly select which 200 to use. --Kevan 17:48, 25 March 2007 (BST)

I just played two games with Zaratustra over MUSH with the first 100 cards. The first game ended on the first turn because of a slow reaction to "Leverage Scam"; the second game ended when I Hoarded 9 Tokens. Branch Statement proved to be impractical because we couldn't implement cutting the deck properly. I can imagine it would be difficult to keep track of tokens, because the Notes would get crowded fast.-Bucky 22:02, 25 March 2007 (BST)

I played a couple of games with Zaratustra as well, using the second hundred - he put a Triplicate onto Lightning Reflexes in the first one, but slipped up by playing Draw Two in response to Tarot Reading (which had given him a Thing) and lost the game. The second game ended with him getting Power Level Scouter and a Crowded Room. Can't remember any broken cards, but BZAAAAARG could use clearer wording as to how exactly a player's turn should be randomised. --Kevan 00:05, 26 March 2007 (BST)

Fixed BZAAAAARG, thanks for the critique. Just one clarification I couldn't fit in the card text that could be easily deduced anyway: if the player whose turn is randomized has only Actions or only Things in his/her hand, randomization of what kind or kinds of cards get played during that turn won't be necessary. --BiggerJ 09:41, 26 March 2007 (BST)

I'd go for tighter wording, even if it means sacrificing some of the card's possibilities (maybe "Choose a player. On their next turn, they must play one random Thing followed by one random Action, if possible. All decisions required by them shall be made randomly.", or something - "randomized by a random number generator" is a bit of a meaningless tautology anyway).

When you're actually playing with these cards, the ones with more than a few lines of text become quite heavy and wearying, a lot more so than reading them in isolation on the site. --Kevan 11:28, 26 March 2007 (BST)

Okay, I've used your suggested wording. Thanks for the help. --BiggerJ 12:42, 26 March 2007 (BST)

Deck status

The note in that box-thing at the top says that this deck is unfinished, and thus unplayable. But people have played it. Perhaps we should change the wording? --fanofphilosophy

Good point. Changed. --Kevan 12:40, 2 April 2007 (BST)

Cards by Jindra34

I would like to know at the very least what people think of my "tack on" cards.--Jindra34

It's good, it's a nice, fresh mechanic. There's some potential for it to interact weirdly with certain actions (such as Russian Roulette) where the extra sentence would get tacked onto a conditional, but I suppose that's part of the fun. --Kevan 13:58, 19 April 2007 (BST)

Wow i'm being mimicked i'm so flattered...--Jindra34

Ink Pen may be -slightly- overpowered, as you can just add 'Win.' to any Action card in your hand.

Does win make any sense as a sentence on its own, and would you be able to convince a majority of the players of that? I think not.

Cards by Corrigan

Last night, you seem to have violated several of the rules of the deck, namely
1)Don't add more than three cards at a time: You seem to have added 15 at once.
2)Don't change other people's cards:You edited Jindra34's "Swap meet" and Ryan_1729's "Role play," "Roll play" and "minimal".
3)Cards shouldn't refer to other cards:Your card "Reggae" uses a category far to precise; there is only one Musician in the entire deck so far. "Red Scare" does the same thing with "Right wing politician".
4)(Unwritten)Add all new cards to the end of the card list: 6 of these 15 cards were inserted into the middle of the pile.

Please follow the rules. -Bucky

Welcome to Dvorak, Corrigan - I've moved your excess cards out to a sub-page of your user page, if you want to add them back in again later. The multiple cards and the title corrections aren't too serious, but they're not a great precedent to set, either.

(And the thing about adding to the end is written, by the way, Bucky; it's part of the first rule.) --Kevan 12:41, 29 May 2007 (BST)

Kevan you also moved one of my cards that he hijacked to the list --Jindra34

Oops - sorry about that. --Kevan 10:47, 8 June 2007 (BST)

Bratva: This card is for all practical purposes the same as "Throne" on page 1. -Bucky 02:16, 4 June 2007 (BST)

We're getting a few repeats now. I think it's fine - we shouldn't expect people to have to read hundreds of previous cards before adding their own, and seeing the same mechanics crop up with different names and styles is fun. The deck is infinite, after all... --Kevan 13:39, 29 June 2007 (BST)

Showdown: In a normal game without a specific card there will only be one draw pile for everyone to use. Thus this card needs to be reworked.Jindra34 1:51 5 June 2007.

Clavin Ball: Is this card even remotely legal?-- Jindra34

The game of Dvorak has Special Rules, so it's fine to create new ones during the course of the game. It's no different to a card with text of "reword this to anything and it can't ever be destroyed". --Kevan 10:47, 8 June 2007 (BST)

What about the rule that there would be no special rules? --Jindra34

Oh, good point. Maybe this would be better written as just another "create a new card" card, for consistency's sake. --Kevan 00:20, 10 June 2007 (BST)

"Nomic" gets around this by allowing that rule to be changed. And cards take presidence over special rules anyway.-Bucky

"Don't make any special rules" is a card-design guideline, in the same sense as "don't add more than three cards at a time", rather than a special rule itself.

Normal Dvorak allows the creation and deletion of special rules - it just seemed a bad idea for this game, when every card was from a separate parallel universe, and any special rule created by a card would never be explicitly referenced by any other cards. --Kevan 10:01, 10 June 2007 (BST)

Reduce, Reuse and Recycle all break the "no special rules" guideline by introducing ongoing effects that players are required to remember. I think there's only one card that can actually end these effects (your own Bono card), so in a randomly infinite game, these are all going to be permanent, invisible effects. They might as well just be Thing cards. --Kevan 13:39, 29 June 2007 (BST)

Depressi's 'Blackboard cleaning' card also removes lingering Action effects. If it is against the rules to have long-lasting Actions, why is that aspect of 'Blackboard cleaning' still there? I know this is a little late. --Corrigan 16:52 8 September 2007 (BST)

He probably didn't notice the rule. There are plenty of old cards that do broken or pointless things. --Kevan 12:01, 9 September 2007 (BST)

Double-Sided Forcefield:This card needs rewording because it causes a paradox as soon as it is played (since its effect forbids itself).-Bucky 05:46, 8 August 2007 (BST)

Mercantilism: "A player can gain control of a Thing with a cornervalue by giving its controller an amount of Money tokens equal to its cornervalue" means that nothing can ever be actually stolen, as the seller can immediately buy it back for the same amount. --Kevan 10:45, 18 August 2007 (BST)

The Past-Seer and The Future-Seer: I know we're supposed to assume that there's an infinite amount of cards, but if you got these two cards you could given enough time search the deck for any card you wanted and it'd be pretty time consuming and kill the pace of the game. You'd also be able to make sure your opponents never got any useful cards. --Wikey 06:24, 22 August 2007 (BST)

I think any reasonable opponent would admire the combo and let it be played as "pick any card from the deck, shuffle it then put that card on top", to save time. --Kevan 10:12, 25 August 2007 (BST)

Zero, Zero and Zero. Don't forget the "cards shouldn't refer to other cards" rule. In an infinite deck, you're unlikely to draw two zeroes... --Kevan 10:05, 25 August 2007 (BST)

Having a single Zero is useful on its own, so I'd say it's forgivable. They also combo with anything that clones cards. Jtwe 16:42, 25 August 2007 (BST)

Energy Concept is a nice idea, but I imagine that "they must destroy 1 Energy token" is missing a "...they control." --Kevan 11:58, 2 September 2007 (BST)

Do you realize how powerful an "Action: Destroy target Thing" card is? It's been taboo up until recently, when you added several such cards. -Bucky 23:04, 19 September 2007 (BST)

You could also create cards with defensive effects. That would make those Things less powerful. -Corrigan 18:53, October 4, 2007 (BST)

This is an infinite deck, though, and most cards won't have those effects. --Kevan 13:40, 5 October 2007 (BST)

Closest to Mao as We Can Get... "Whenever a player's hand is empty, they win." is pretty powerful in itself, given that you just have to play this card when the rest of your hand is empty. --Kevan 09:29, 12 October 2007 (BST)

"Save", "Damn" - These cards need reworking if I'm reading them correctly, as they violate the "no special rules" rule due to their lasting effects.-Bucky 05:00, 14 May 2008 (BST)

Having text on tokens is a bit of a weird fix to this, since tokens don't normally have text, and it would still need to be tracked somewhere to work. If we want a token with text, I think we usually just say "make a new Thing card with the following text". But Damn and Save could just be Things that get played under an opponent's control, I think. --Kevan 00:18, 23 May 2008 (BST)

As for tokens with text, I think the wording I used on Mass Haste is probably as clear as it's going to get, for whatever that's worth. But I agree that Damn and Save could easily be Things. --Jtwe 18:12, 23 May 2008 (BST)

Communist Fashion

Cards 701-800. Violates "No Lasting Effects" (No Special Rules). --Pongo 09:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Corpse Jelly

Another one! It's a card whose effect appears to outlast its lifetime. "If the Thing ever refers to itself by name, replace its name with 'Corpse Jelly'." --Pongo 18:17, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorrow

Which way are you supposed to round? --Tweed Cap 15:09, 12 April 2008 (BST)

Suggestion: If you have an odd number when you have to divide, create another token to make an even number. --Tweed Cap 15:15, 17 April 2008 (BST)

Invade Iraq

More violation of the lingering game effect guideline. If you want to create tokens with text on them, the cleanest ways are either just create new cards with given content during the game, or to have a Thing that defines the game abilities of the tokens, but only for as long as that Thing sticks around.

The current wording actually raises some unintuitive problems - if I play a "create a token of any type" card three turns later and choose "Oil", then my Oil token won't have any special abilities, because it wasn't hit by the "write this text on these tokens" part of the Action from three turns ago. --Kevan 12:03, 12 June 2008 (BST)

It's all fixed now; I changed it into a Thing called "Occupation of Iraq". --- Corrigan 14:53 July 4, 2008 (BST)

Ilgeayidzed Jistogu

Copycat. Did you really have to make it not a shift-cipher? I swear I'm gonna figure this thing out.--ChippyYYZ 01:47, 23 July 2008 (BST)

Cards by GreenLiquid

I have a strong objection to the way you worded the last sentence card. First, there are several cards which could usually reverse such an effect (such as Wand of Cancellation in the 201-300 block), but cannot due to that clause. Second, with the way it's worded, playing it a second time will not reverse the effect; it will merely allow a Wand of Cancellation to do its work. A better wording would be "This effect ends when Greatest Ploy Ever is played a second time." --Bucky 06:08, 2 October 2007 (BST)

It's also in direct violation of the "No Special Rules" rule. -Bucky 05:03, 3 October 2007 (BST)

The Best Card Ever

Is this card too... awkward to keep? --Kyevan 03:15, 20 October 2007 (BST)

It's completely meaningless if you're playing online. It's also completely meaningless within the game. It also violates the "no lasting effects of actions" rule.-Bucky 09:31, 20 October 2007 (BST)

But it's fun! If you read El Goonish Shive, anyway. Hmm... I'll pull it from the deck and keep it on my user page. Sound good? --Kyevan 14:19, 20 October 2007 (BST) (Edited: Oops! Forgot to sign)

Cards by Eric F

Saruman's Icy Storm

I recently edited it for spelling and grammar... I hope that's allowed. "No one can destroy opponants[sic] things"...I'm not sure what that means. Surely it means, "during his extra turn, the player of this card cannot destroy opponents' things". Or does it mean "for the rest of this game, the no-one can destroy their opponents' things". The latter violates the "no lasting effects" rule. Maybe Eric forgot to change his Action to a Thing. --Pongo 10:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Leaving spelling intact is sometimes useful for letting other users quickly judge the quality of a card (or a user's entire card output - there's an export filter that lets you ignore all cards by a given user); there's also the risk that you might "correct" someone's intentional misspelling. I don't really mind either way, though. --Kevan 10:52, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Shower of Arrows

Who is "they"? Does the player choose who to target? Is the target picked at random? Is everyone except the player of the card targeted? It should be specified. --Pongo 10:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Cards by Gill smoke

Is there any reason I couldn't use THING: instead of ACTION: I was thinking of a sacrifice card like "THING: remove a living token add a bad token. If you have 10 bad tokens remove those and eliminate another player." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gill smoke (talk • contribs) 31st December 2007.

It might be a bit weird in that the rest of the deck is very slightly geared to reacting to "Action abilities", but no, you can do whatever you like here. --Kevan 18:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

There are a couple of cards that use this. "Matter Synthesizer" on the first archived page was the first such card. It usually appears in combination with a complementary Action ability, as in "Flash Memory Card" on the second archived page. -Bucky 19:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Is Mountain intended to allow a player to gain an unlimited number of tokens each turn, or is this accidental? -Bucky 15:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

accidental, but I like it. Countably infinite. I was shooting for a certain famous theme. I've fixed it. -gill_smoke

I copied the unplayable mechanic from 'Red Hering' for 'Take your doll clothes and go home', but I couldn't call it a derp card, I think we still need 3 more for that non action non thing win condition. -gill_smoke

As per Kevan I added Sellout from Corrigan, It's off his user page, I modified it a little and added flavor text. -Gill smoke 15:46, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Is "Action(global):" supposed to mean anything different to just "Action:", on the Rip It Out card? --Kevan 17:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I meant all players have the option of playing that Action ability. I thought I saw that used before. -Gill smoke 19:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, I've never seen it. The usual wording it just to say "Any player may play this action ability." at the end, because it's such a rare mechanic. --Kevan 10:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I've fixed it. -Gill smoke 13:49, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I've used it before. It was in my card "Pawn Shop" (on Infinite Dvorak deck/Cards 1301-1400) --Pongo 20:12, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

See I knew I saw it before. -Gill smoke 17:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

You Drank the bong water -- I think you meant "Target player discards a card and skips their next turn" rather than "Target player discards a card and loses the game the next time someone takes a turn." Either way, the card needs rewording. -Bucky 15:20, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

fixed Gill smoke 18:53, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I've got more of my own cards to add, but some of the other decks are too good to pass up. -Gill smoke 17:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Zombies

Don't forget the infinite nature of the deck. Even with a few dozen zombie-token-generating cards in there, a mechanic like "each Zombie token in play may be exchanged for a money token" isn't going to be playable alongside the 1,500 other cards in any given game. --Kevan 09:59, 3 April 2008 (BST)

I'm well aware, I'm also pacing my Zombies to be at least usable in each set of one hundred. which is how people are playing in your MUSH. Like the superpower and token set I see a zombie set coming. --Gill smoke 18:19, 7 April 2008 (BST)

It'd be nicer not to have the deck specifically tailored to how people were playing it on a MUSH in early 2008. Most of the cards are fine, it's just the ones that require zombie cards or tokens to be around to have any effect; it should be easy enough to reword these to still be of some use in other games, even if it's just "if there are no zombie tokens, put three into play" special cases. --Kevan 22:21, 7 April 2008 (BST)

I'll remember that. Is the 144 (or whatever) card limit going to be removed or boosted? -Gill smoke 21:06, 9 April 2008 (BST)

Hell

"or destroy a thing to play an action ablity." is maybe (just maybe) meant to be: "or destroy a thing THEY CONTROL to play..." - Zt - 13:48, 3. April 2008 (UTC)

Good call Fixed -Gill smoke 18:04, 7 April 2008 (BST)

Mafia run casino

What exactly is this card supposed to do? It seems confusing as to what it actually does. --Gimlear 03:48, 7 April 2008 (BST)

It changes a game mechanic. you can no longer discard any cards. if your hand is full you can't draw. If you have a nomicly safe way to put it I'd be glad to put it in. --Gill smoke 18:07, 7 April 2008 (BST)

How about "This card may be played onto any player. As long as this card is in play, you may not discard any cards and if your hand contains five or more cards, you may not draw any cards." or something like that. --Gimlear 02:33, 8 April 2008 (BST)

That limits hand size, there are plenty of cards that change the total number of cards in your hand. I don't want to change that. and I have some more coming -Gill smoke 21:16, 10 April 2008 (BST)

Unicorn

"As long as you control Unicorn you may not control any undead, if you do destroy Unicorn." Maybe it's me, but I don't understand this sentence. Is it meant to be: "...you may not control any undead, unless you destroy Unicorn." ? I like the "play a living thing from your hand" ability, though. - Zt - 15:00, 8. April 2008 (UTC)

I keep looking at it and I think it's ok the way it is. My intention is, if you gain control of an undead 'thing' you have to destroy Unicorn. Weather it is from playing a card from your hand or gaining control from another source, Unicorn has got to go.

Dumb American

This card needs to be more specific. So far in the deck we have cards with:

• non-standard English titles or text ("!Yad Sdrawkcab S'ti", "Moar!", "Txtng"),
• non-English titles and English text ("Klaatu barada nikto!", "Préemption de l'État"),
• dual-language text ("Русская передача", "Language In-Crowd: Spanish Edition!"), and
• no English at all ("あなたの輝かしい遺産を覚えていてください。", "Ilgeayidzed Jistogu").

Which does this card apply to? Binarius 16:49, 1 August 2008 (BST)

All of the above. --Gill smoke 17:29, 26 August 2008 (BST)

symbol

Is this far more powerful than intended, or did you really mean for it to read "Lock your opponent out of the game completely while you draw as many cards as you want" in a 2-player game?-Bucky

This is far more powerful than I intended, I'll make draw an action. --Gill smoke 17:31, 26 August 2008 (BST)

That doesn't help; You still get to draw your normal one card per turn. The problem is the "Lock your opponent out of the game completely" part.-Bucky 03:54, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Cricket

Is Cricket a living thing? If so, then as currently written it wouldn't be able to use its own Action ability. Binarius 19:20, 16 September 2008 (BST)

I was thinking the British sport or the Krikket wars. I'll add sport subtype

Broken Card

Does this card really let you create a card with whatever ruletext you want and play it immediately without giving any of your opponents any say in the matter? Like "Binarius wins", for example? Binarius 20:17, 3 October 2008 (BST)

Yep, it's a poke at Bucky who hates such win conditions. See also "I Win" "You Lose" cards I made a while back. That's the reason for the flavor text. You could just as easily make the card say "This card does nothing." Infinite Dvorak is not a competitive game it's playable and fun but you have to be careful of the cards you allow in your set. --Gill smoke 21:59, 3 October 2008 (BST)

Quarks

I think Bucky's Nodes intentionally still worked even if there were no other Nodes in play (the "number of Nodes you control" would always be at least one), but you're moving outside of that with cards like Meson Stream. Or was that supposed to be of type "Quark"? --Kevan 18:17, 7 October 2008 (BST)

I agree. Meson Stream could be quite powerful, but mainly under a very improbable best-case scenario. Another idea: I'd want to incorporate the other cards in this series into the quark mechanic as well (muons, tauons, etc. are made of quarks, but they are not themselves quarks). Like the Nodes, but with a distinct personality. "Thing - Particle", perhaps? Binarius 00:53, 8 October 2008 (BST)

I was deliberately went against it being a Quark, Like the Zombie General discussion above. In a random set Meson Stream could be useless. but it would still be a thing in play.--Gill smoke 14:03, 9 October 2008 (BST)

Proton

In order to keep search time reasonable, I normally restrict search cards in this deck to the top N cards of the deck, where N can be as high as 20 or even 100. Don't worry, Proton's power level is still over 9000 even with such a restriction.-Bucky 16:26, 8 October 2008 (BST)

I'll fix it. I've got a couple of nodes to add then I'll sit out for a while. I was banging out the cards because I had an inspired thought. --Gill smoke 14:03, 9 October 2008 (BST)

What is this "power level" of which you speak, Bucky? Some kind of metric for gauging cards' relative strengths? Binarius 19:03, 8 October 2008 (BST)

It's a reference to an episode of Dragonball Z. Just search Youtube for "over 9000" and you'll see.--ChippyYYZ 21:06, 8 October 2008 (BST)

In other words, it's over-the-top super-powerful. By definition, it's at least the second-best Thing in the entire deck.-Bucky 23:33, 8 October 2008 (BST)

Awesome. Educational and entertaining. Thanks for that, guys. Binarius 08:32, 9 October 2008 (BST)

Credit Market

"...Otherwise every turn everybody must destroy a money token, and destroy a money token for every card with action abilities." What if a player has no Money tokens? Goldenboots 20:45, 17 October 2008 (BST)

They are broke. I didn't envision this penalizing actions for having no money, I'll add "if able"--Gill smoke 12:26, 21 October 2008 (BST)

Just desserts

"Destroy all of the triggering opponents instead." Opponents are usually eliminated, not destroyed. Or did you mean: "Destroy all of the triggering opponents' Things instead." ? - Zt, 16:54, 21. October 2008

Fixed, It made sense to me. --Gill smoke 12:23, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The original version just needed an apostrophe; I suspect the intended meaning was "Destroy all of the triggering opponent's instead". Also, the card's title might be misspelled. If we're talking about something fun to eat after dinner, we need two "s"s in a row; with only one, it's the hot and dry place. Binarius 18:04, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I always screw that up. --Gill smoke 15:28, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

So simple a caveman could do it

"There's a distinction between destroy and remove from game -Zt" Thanks for quoting me, but... did I really say that? Frankly, I can't remember... Zt, 16:57, 21 October 2008

No, but you had several flavortexts that sounded like that. --Gill smoke 12:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Zombie Knight

Cards_1701-1800. The way it is phrased, you may continue removing armour tokens after they have all gone, which makes no sense. You need to add something about the card becoming vulnerable after all its armour tokens have been removed. --Pongo 11:55, 25 October 2008 (BST)

Fixed, that was a little necromantic of you. Did you check the whole archive?--Gill smoke 12:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

No, I just noticed it as I was skimming through. --Pongo 15:07, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Writing cards

They were in the spirit of NaNoWriMo. I hit 5K today. --Gill smoke 15:39, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Sounds better when you say it

"play in reaction to an action card. you preempt control." Preempt control? Control of what? What does this card do? - Zt, 10:24, 13. November 2008 (CET)

I'll reword it. I meant you act as though YOU played the target card. --Gill smoke 17:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Borg Collective

"When a card is assimilated Borg Collective may add the action or thing ability to thier rules text. All of your things must be assimilated before you can assimilate others Action: Assimilate thing. (Destroy)"

Picky, picky... (1) THEIR (2) You'll never get to assimilate anyone else's Thing, because until Borg Collective is assimilated (destroyed!) you still have a Thing left to assimilate (destroy). Goldenboots 04:17, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

how about: "All of your things must be assimilated to the Borg Collective before you can assimilate other player's things." I realized the ownership clause was a little vague as well. --Gill smoke 17:58, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Gibbering Mouther

Punctuation is critical to parsing this card and interpreting its meaning:

• Comes into play with one size token whenever this card destroys a thing. Add a size token to this card. Whenever this card would be destroyed, destroy a size token on this card first if there are no more size tokens. Destroy this card. Action: Destroy random thing.
• Comes into play with one size token. Whenever this card destroys a thing, add a size token to this card. Whenever this card would be destroyed, destroy a size token on this card. First, if there are no more size tokens, Destroy this card. Action: Destroy random thing.
• Comes into play with one size token, whenever. This card destroys a thing. Add a size token to this card. Whenever this card would be destroyed, destroy a size token on this card first. If there are no more size tokens, Destroy this card. Action: Destroy random thing.

And is "Destroy" capitalized because it's the beginning of the sentence "Destroy this card"? Binarius 22:05, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes total editing snafu. Intention is destroy the size counters before the Gibbering Mouther. I was hoping to avoid repeating the error that was on Zombie Knight.

Public Library

"Whenever you draw a card draw two, you hand size is unlimited." So when I draw those two, I'm drawing a card - so make that two twos... help! I'm crushed under an arbitrarily large pile of cards! Goldenboots 03:59, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Like being crushed by the books in the library, it's your own fault really. I'll fix it. --Gill smoke 13:45, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Deck Still Not Finite

You seem to be on a bit of a food-card binge at the moment, which is fine, but remember that effects like "If this is ever sacrificed for food" and "Destroy a food item" are going to be useless for most infinite games. "If this is ever destroyed by a card you control" and "destroy an edible or living Thing" might be better ways to go. --Kevan 00:11, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

And if the effect never triggers then it is a useless thing on the board, like say a hat card or a zombie token, or detrimental like flat tax (sacrifice money or die) or any other card with a sacrifice condition. I was going to add a bunch of food token generators but decided individual cards would be in better form. I'm almost done with my food related cards a pity they don't all fit on a set. --Gill smoke 06:06, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

It helps the player to know how useful or useless a card is when they draw it; if it's blank, they can immediately see that and judge it accordingly. It's less fun to draw a "when sacrificed for food" card and to have no idea whether the deck as a whole contains hundreds of powerful "sacrifice a card for food" mechanics coming up, or whether it was just a one-off idea that nobody remembered to use again. (There might well be a deck idea in that, where cards can freely reference non-existence concepts to fox the players, but I don't think this is it.) --Kevan 17:14, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Cards by Pongo

Summon Pink Elephant

Summon Pink Elephant Seems quite powerful, I loose my turn because I can't destroy a token, what happens when I do? is it destroyed? The way it's worded makes it seem like it remains in play even after I "kill" it. If I kill it with an action card do I then get to play a Thing? How would I remove it?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by gill_smoke (talk • contribs).

Yeah, the wording is a bit woozy on this one - it'd be clearer if worded as "may not play cards which do not destroy the token", as "may only play cards" potentially means that you can't draw or use action abilities or breathe. And "for as long as they control it" is an invisible pseudo-rule. This could just be simplified to a Thing that comes into play under an opponent's control... --Kevan 10:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

the bigger problem, I have it, how do I remove it? It's a hallucination. It's unclear if "remove a token" action removes it; because I may only play cards that remove unliving tokens. Does the effect happen? I also think the colored part should be pink -Gill smoke 17:05, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a token, so it's a Thing, so any "destroy a Thing" card will deal with it. I'm not sure why you're talking about removing unliving tokens. --Kevan 17:49, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Boot Disk probably needs to exclude itself from the "no Things in play" clause of its own ability... --Kevan 17:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Done. --Pongo 20:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Expensive New Drug

Expensive New Drug "When this is played, choose any effects you wish to protect a card of your choice from, erase this sentence and note that on this card. At the beginning of your turn, remove a money token you own or destroy this card. Action: Change the card you are protecting." I think I understand the Action ability (it means, choose a different card to protect and unprotect the old one) but it seems ambiguous. Couldn't a player argue that "change the card" means, for instance, change the ruletext to whatever I want? Also, the protection: can I protect a card from having its owner lose? From having its owner's opponent win? From being crowded by any other Things being played? Since the card says "any effects", plural, can I choose all of these plus destruction, removal from the game, changes to ruletext, encroachment by tokens, AND being overruled by another card? Goldenboots 15:16, 25 October 2008 (BST)

"Any effects which directly affect the card itself" is the intentional meaning. "Having its owner lose" or "havings its owner's opponent win" are not effects which I see to affect the card itself. "Change the card" to me seems clear enough, but I'll remove the ambiguity, if at the price of increasing the card's verbosity. --Pongo 15:29, 25 October 2008 (BST)

Flying Spaghetti Monster

The text flows out of the card. At least in my browser. Maybe take out the line breaks? - Zt, 13:46, 13. November 2008 (CET)

I don't see that as a problem. You can export it or click edit to see the missing sentence. Pongo 16:47, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Cards by ZT

All Hallows' Eve

It's completely impratical. Who the hell takes notes of what exactly what each player discards? The card is practically unplayable. --Pongo 17:50, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Yep, changed it. Something else: is it OK for cards to let you search the deck for another card? (E.g.: killer bees) The deck is theoretically infinite, so this could be tedious. On the other hand, it's not really infinite. Suggestions? --Zt 20:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, allowing searching of the deck is fine, but it is recommended the cards you can search for are not too specific, as that violates the "cards shouldn't refer to other cards" rule. I don't think impractical cards are forbidden as such, but they make the game tricky. Killer Bees is fine as a card. Pongo 16:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

You bought this vacuum cleaner and...

The sentence that says "At the beginning of your turn you are eliminated." should either say "At the beginning of your next turn you are eliminated." or "At the end of your turn you are eliminated." -Gimlear 20:52, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

"At the beginning of your next turn you are eliminated." is sth. else, as it triggers only once. "At the end of your turn" is sth. else, because you have less time to destroy "You bought this vacuum cleaner and". Maybe I should change it to: "At the beginning of each of your turns..."? Or does this sound strange? - Zt - 17:44, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Why would you need to be eliminated more than once? -Gimlear 01:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

If you have, say, a Get Out of Jail Free (page 2) in your hand the first time.-Bucky 02:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Changed it to: "Whenever your turn ends you are eliminated." Sounds odd maybe, but it should make clear that it triggers every turn. - Zt - 14:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

You Will Never Dance Alone

Is this card's ability meant to recurse infinitely and give you an infinite number of tokens? If not, it should be reworded. -Bucky 21:22, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the intention is pretty clear. Do you mean it should be worded more like "Whenever another card generates a Single Token This card generates one too."-Gill smoke 01:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm just stupid and I totally didn't see the infinite recursion. Reworded it. Hope it's clear now. (You could still have an infinite recursion with two of these things in play now.) - Zt - 12:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Porn Movie Factory

I think it is common practice to put the come into play effects before the Action abilities, the way the card looks is it gets destroyed only when you play the action ability. I don't think that's what you intend. --Gill smoke 23:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. - Zt - 12:12, 26. March 2008 (UTC)

Gravity cannon

This card is way overpowered, in a two player game I win. In multi player after it hits the table, every other player can eliminate 2 other players (or or their proxies like extra lives). One for a Thing then one for the Action. To tone it down I'd make it only an action ability. I'd also consider adding a cost to play or use like destroy an energy token. I think there are other win conditions in this hundred. Otherwise it's a fine card. -Gill smoke 16:11, 2 April 2008 (BST)

There is no rule disallowing overpowered cards. They're not encouraged, but they're not disallowed because the deck is "infinite" anyway. You've made straight "I win" cards before. Check cards 1401-1500. --Pongo 16:15, 2 April 2008 (BST)

Actually, unless I'm reading it wrong, this is underpowered. You play it, and then you've played your Thing for the turn, so you can't use its ability instead of playing an Action and a Thing. Then your opponent goes, walks over to the cannon, turns it around, and blasts you with it. To fire it safely, you'd need to be able to play two Things and an Action in one turn, or somehow play it at the end of an opponent's turn, or something. What I want to know is, does this count as an "Action ability" for the purpose of Rickrolling it? Jtwe 20:04, 2 April 2008 (BST)

I concur. I'd say it does, because it seems to require one to use both their action and their thing ability for that turn. The Rickroll card effectively cancels a player's action, so I'm assuming in this case, since the thing ability relies on the action ability and vice versa, that the player effectively loses their thing ability as well. --Pongo 09:01, 3 April 2008 (BST)

"Action and Thing" = "instead of playing an action and instead of playing a thing". At least that's how I understand it. So jtwe is right, it's underpowered, unless you play in teams or you find a way to play more than one object per turn. As the thing ability doesn't work without the action ability, I'd also assume that all "counter an action" effects should eliminate it. - Zt - 13:40, 3. April 2008 (UTC)

Ohhhhh, I understood it's ability to be playable as either, not both an Action and a Thing --Gill smoke 18:10, 7 April 2008 (BST)

Gunpowder Factory

"Whenever another thing than this is destroyed, destroy all things." ... thing other than this card ... might be better wording? -Gill smoke 19:00, 7 April 2008 (BST)

Fixed. - Zt - 12:18, 8. April 2008 (UTC)

Rune of Haste

"Discard n cards. Then choose an Action or Thing ability and use it 2ⁿ times" Ooh! I think i'll discard 4 cards and play one 2 to the 4th power times!--NARF 13:01, 23 September 2008 (BST)

Your point being? --Kevan 13:30, 23 September 2008 (BST)

Maybe he thinks the card is overpowered? Dunno. - Zt 00:06, 24 September 2008 (CET)

Albert Camus

Zombies, eh? I guess sometimes truth is...stranger than fiction? Binarius 21:25, 24 September 2008 (BST)

This could win "Best Card". Or at least "Wittiest Card".--ChippyYYZ 23:49, 24 September 2008 (BST)

Thank you. And he definitely did. - Zt, 20:35, 25.09.2008 (CET)

Oh, and in case sb. cares: the card that made me laugh most is Corrigan's "The Lord of the Xerox". (1001-1100) I always imagine the angry boss shouting that line. Hilarious. - Zt, 20:43, 25.09.2008 (CET)

I knew who he was. He stole the idea I had in high school for a novel, only he wrote it in 1942. --Gill smoke 20:32, 25 September 2008 (BST)

Interesting. Which novel? - Zt 09:33, 27 September 2008 (CET)

The Stranger -Gill smoke 21:28, 28 September 2008 (BST)

Homo Neanderthalensis

Bub is a real guy I work with and that would be something he would say. I'm trying to come up a card to go with "Why don't you go outside and practice falling down until I get there."-Bub I know its a remove and come back mechanic, but I can't get the embarrassing nature of the comment in. -Gill smoke 21:29, 28 September 2008 (BST)

Bub could become the new mascot of the Infinite Dvorak deck. We just have to pay attention to stay in character when we write those lines. It's harder for me as I don't know him, but I'd definitely like to see him appear on more cards. - Zt 18:02, 29 September 2008 (CET)

I've told him about it and he's touched but bewildered. Think blue collar redneck with an attitude. He doesn't cuss (much) so it makes it easier to be able to use him for direct quotes. A couple of priceless gems are now on my user talk page. -Gill smoke 02:36, 1 October 2008 (BST)

Great. Can't wait to see new cards with these quotes. - Zt, 22:54, 01. October 2008 (CET)

TYPE

Are you trying to break things? normally we have actions and things what kind is type? Was it from copying ChippyYYZ's untyped thing?

Yes, it was a copy paste mistake. Thank you. - Zt, 06. October, 13:03 (CET)

Hyperdimensional World-Eating Blackhole

"Whenever a Thing is removed from the game, draw a card and remove target thing from the game" "Once it gets started, there's no turning back"

Wait- if one Thing is removed, the controller of HWEB gets to remove all the Things, one by one, drawing a card for each. If a Thing is removed by HWEB, it triggers HWEB. I guess the controller could stop at a certain point by targetting HWEB. Goldenboots 02:44, 16 October 2008 (BST)

Oh, good point! Then there IS turning back. You could remove all opponents' Things and leave your own Things in play. I still don't think it's too powerful, because you need another card to remove a Thing in the first place. - Zt, 13:51, 17. October 2008 (CET)

The Decline and Fall of the Mighty Culture of NguNbuLe

"At the beginning of your turn erase the last sentence on this card. Indestructible. Action: Target opponent discards a card. Action: Take a Thing from the discard pile in your hand. Action: Destroy target Thing. Action and Thing: Erase target Thing's first sentence."

It's very neat that you can't use this card to erase its own first sentence unless you have a way of playing two Things and one Action in the turn you play it. If you do... it's very powerful. Goldenboots 20:25, 17 October 2008 (BST)

Actually, though, unless you can play two Things and an Action in the turn you play this card - you can't use the last rule to erase anything, ever.Goldenboots 23:49, 17 October 2008 (BST)

Thank you. No, you can't use the last Action normally, this was intended. It's just there to give you the possibility to erase its own first sentence, if you happen to be able to play two Things per turn. (See also: Gravity Cannon.) - Zt, 16:49, 21. October 2008

When me and Grandpa Used to Hunt Dinosaurs

"Everybody may use this Thing's abilities. Action: Destroy target living Thing controlled by opponent. If you do, gain a tooth token. Action: If you control two or more tooth tokens, eliminate a player with no living Things in play."

This may be intended, but after you get your two tooth tokens, you can eliminate players with no living Things until the undead cows come home. Or did you mean, sacrifice two tooth tokens to eliminate the player? Goldenboots 19:57, 21 October 2008 (BST)

I think it's balanced - if you're up against more than one player, it increases the chance that someone will be able to destroy this card, between each of your turns. Besides, everyone gets to use it. --Kevan 20:09, 21 October 2008 (BST)

The Allmighty Flying Frog of Buxtephlog IX

I disagree with the strongest card assessment You do realize the card wins the game not the controller?

Of course. The flavour text is a joke. I usually avoid making straight I win cards. ;) - Zt, 10:17, 29 October 2008 (CET)

If he were really aLmighty, he would know a typo when he saw one.  :) --ChippyYYZ 22:14, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe he did know it, and he saw that it was good! Binarius 23:38, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out, but it wasn't the first and it won't be the last typo by me. I'm no native speaker. So keep on correcting me, please (no irony). - Zt, 12:17, 31 October 2008 (some crazy European country time)

Draw

"If all Things you control are black, win the game. Otherwise the game ends and nobody wins, nobody loses." Since this ends the game, shouldn't it be an Action? Goldenboots 00:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely right. Fixed it. - Zt 17:10, 11. November 2008 (CET)

Literature: a Disstory

"Who is the most overrated author ever? Everybody writes down a name secretly. If 2 players chose the same name, both win. If sb. wrote down one of the names below, she gains an irreverence token and draws a card. Hemingway, Twain, Melville, Updike, Sartre, Saramagó, Camus, Dostojevskij, Tolstoj, Roth, Kafka, Goethe, Schiller, Mann, Kundera, the guy who wrote the bible, Cervantes, Dante, Calvino, Shakespeare, Homer."

Shouldn't this be an Action, too? Otherwise, it happens once, and just sits there afterwards. Also, Dostoyevski and Tolstoy aren't spelled with J's in English transliteration, and who's Saramago? Goldenboots 15:25, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it should be an Action. I'm too used to making Things. Tolstoy with "y" look strange, but if that's how you write it in English, OK. Saramago won the noble price for literature. - Zt, 17:42, 12. November 2008 (CET)

Gayness

Really? Do you want to piss off possible gay players? Goldenboots 04:24, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Gayness in the original meaning of the word: "Happiness". That's why everybody has to smile. And I don't want to piss off gay players, I want to piss of everybody ;) , Zt, 19:28, 14. November 2008 (CET)

In Soviet Russia Card Plays You!

Play in response to an Action. The Action's text is changed till end of turn. All instances of "the" and "a" in the Action's text are removed. Each subject in the sentence becomes an object, each object becomes "you". Dots become exclamation marks.

This is neat. You don't need to say "till end of turn" since Actions go away immediately anyway, and this card doesn't apply to a Thing's action ability. I think it's clearer to say: 'each sentence's object becomes the new subject, and the new object is "you" ' (or maybe "each TRANSITIVE VERB's object..."). Now, who is "you"? It's the person playing the original action, right? Goldenboots 04:24, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, "you" is the person playing the Action, like in every Action "you" refers to the person playing it. I put the till the end of your turn clause inside, because Action Abilities are Actions as well and I didn't want their test to be changed permanently. - Zt, 19:31, 14. November 2008 (CET)

Skeleton Warmage

Just asking, Why not a copy of Skeleton Warrior, with an ability instead of a token without?

I thought that he would be too hard to get rid of with an Ability that copied himself. He's already got a protection from being removed (discard two cards). The rationale behind the token is that it can be used as an undead token for any effect that says: Destroy an undead you control to do this and that. It won't be useful in every game context, but in some. And then you've still got the protection effect which could be useful in many different game situations. - Zt, 21:04, 03. December 2008 (CET)

Cards by Gimlear

The Pointless Game The Sentence: "This action is called "calling cards". No player may call a card unless it was the last card played." is mostly fluff to describe getting tokens in the next sentence. Please revise to get the card to fit the Card size, as it is you are almost into the next card down. I like the concept though.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gill smoke (talk • contribs).

fixed --Gimlear 03:44, 7 April 2008 (BST)

Gimlear, your card was not removed it got thrown into the archive. Your new card is still a mile long. If you need to use that much text try the longtext tag instead of the text tag. --Gill smoke 18:10, 7 April 2008 (BST)

It's not in the archive because I moved it down before the archive page was made, there are quite a few cards with a lot of text, and I did use the longtext tag. --Gimlear 02:30, 8 April 2008 (BST)

I see Beetle Red didn't make the cut with The Pointless Game --Gill smoke 19:02, 2 June 2008 (BST)

I very much like this card concept. It is still too long to not look awkward, which is a shame since there's no need for it to go on so long. For example, the text fits just fine in this rewording, which has the same effect as far as I can tell. --Tweed Cap 18:53, 10 April 2008 (BST)

The Pointless Game

Thing

Whenever anyone plays a Thing with a color in its title, any other player may say "Beetle <color>" (if the color is not "red") or "Beaver Cleaver" (if the color is "red"); the first to do this gains 1 Pointless token and destroys the Thing. If any player ever has at least 10 Pointless tokens, the player with the most Pointless tokens wins the game.

Card by Gimlear, reworded by Tweed Cap

I think this may be construed to violate the "No Special Rules" guideline, but I can change it just a little to satisfy it. Thanks. --Gimlear 00:39, 11 April 2008 (BST)

Much better. Though I feel compelled to mention that the "As long as this is in play," is still unnecessary. Things that have a continuing effect on gameplay behave like Enchantments in Magic: the Gathering and similar cards in most games' they automatically stop doing whatever is they do when they leave play. If in some Dvorak game you wanted a Thing to continue doing something even after it leaves play, you'd have to explicitly say so. But you shouldn't do that on an Infinite Dvorak card; that's what "no special rules" means. It means that the cards in play and not your memory of cards played in the past tell you everything that's going on. --Tweed Cap 00:55, 11 April 2008 (BST)

Well put Tweed Cap, you comment covers the essence of the game. --Gill smoke 12:18, 11 April 2008 (BST)

Dawn of War

As written, a player gains a morale token whenever he destroys one of his own things. Maybe this was your intention; if not, it should be changed. --Tweed Cap 16:22, 10 April 2008 (BST)

Additionally, care must be taken not to have a recursion here. When a player's Thing gets destroyed, Dawn of War destroys a morale token. But a morale token is a Thing, so if Dawn of War is controlled by someone else, it seems that this player has had a Thing destroyed by another player (using what seems to be the most natural definition of having a thing destroyed by another player, namely destroyed by a card controlled by another player), so he then loses another morale token. And so on until he is eliminated. There are lots of ways to fix this; here are three fixes off the top of my head.

1. Define what it means for a Thing to be destroyed "by a player" more narrowly, so that, for example, it only includes the effects of playing Things, playing Actions, and using Action abilities.
2. Have Dawn of War only apply to non-token Things.
3. Kludge. Do neither of those, but just legislate that losing a morale token doesn't trigger Dawn of War.

This card is long enough already, though, and it's probably safe to leave it to the vote of whoever plays with the card. Still, I for one am interested to know what your intention is. --Tweed Cap 16:34, 10 April 2008 (BST)

Thanks for pointing that out. I fixed it. And, yes, I did intend a player to gain a morale token whenever he destroys one of his own things. --Gimlear 17:40, 10 April 2008 (BST)

Again, in the spirit of not overflowing the box, this is easily fixed here by removing "As long as this card is in play,", which is unnecessary in context. --Tweed Cap 21:47, 10 April 2008 (BST)

Cards by Tweed Cap

If you have a question to ask or an issue to raise about any of my cards, it's worth looking at my user page. There's a good chance it's addressed there. --Tweed Cap 20:20, 11 April 2008 (BST)

Oubliette

It's not clear, what happens to the removed things when Oubliette is destroyed? Do the return to play? Are they destroyed? -Gill smoke 12:10, 11 April 2008 (BST)

They're gone. Removed from game is forever in my book. --Tweed Cap 15:03, 11 April 2008 (BST)

Just asking, why not use the destroy effect? To avoid protection effects? -Gill smoke 13:42, 14 April 2008 (BST)

Not really. Certainly, there are days when I want to take down those darned protected cards (cf. Exploit Strange Vulnerability), but here the point is that the removed cards are gone. They can't be brought back from the discard pile. --Tweed Cap 13:57, 14 April 2008 (BST)

Cards by Anfo

Where did you get the Cognitive Behavioral Therapy bullet points?-Gill smoke 16:02, 8 May 2008 (BST)

Anfo added them to his(?) Cognitive Behavioral Therapy deck, but I thought they were neat so I rewrote three of them a bit and added them to the Infinite Dvorak deck, so I'll try to answer your question. (I didn't credit myself as the one who added them to the deck since the "card by" line was overlong as it is. Maybe I should change it to "Card by Anfo, added by jtwe?) Anyway, I'm not sure what you mean by bullet points. The reference I used was the Wikipedia article on cognitive distortion, if that helps. Jtwe 18:34, 8 May 2008 (BST)

The cards I've added from other decks I did just that. Card by XX added by gill. That article is just what I meant. Thanks. I'm going to have to check out Anfo's deck -Gill smoke 17:22, 9 May 2008 (BST)

Mental Filtering

That's twisted, I think that bonus should work the other way. Like: May be played on another whenever they would draw a card you do instead and give them a card from your hand. Maybe with a token to mark the one who draws. As it is I wouldn't play it out of my hand. I'd wait and discard it. -Gill smoke 16:02, 8 May 2008 (BST)

That is how it works. You play it on an opponent, then whenever they would draw, you draw and give them a card. Jtwe 18:34, 8 May 2008 (BST)

I see it's intention now, the way I read it was Play on another when you(one who played the card) would draw, owner(of card) does ... perhaps I read it too quickly -Gill smoke 17:22, 9 May 2008 (BST)

2,000 cards

I noticed, while compiling some stats on the first 2,000 cards (which I'll put on the 1901-2000 talk page soon), that the 1501-1600 page actually only had 90 cards on it. I've corrected this by moving the first ten cards on every successive page to the end of the preceding one. The 2,000th card is now Atticus's "Being Very Sleepy" (which is to say, it always was), and the most recent addition, "Préemption de l'État", makes 2,109. Binarius 09:51, 1 August 2008 (BST)

The stats are up. Check out the 1901-2000 discussion page for all of the details. Binarius 04:16, 3 August 2008 (BST)

Wow, Thanks for the stats. How did you get all the cards together? I copied and pasted the first 1000 once, what a pain in the a$$ that was. Did you import them into Excel for the stats? I would love that file. I have considered printing an entire deck but ... Hey how many cards have Zombie or undead on the card? --Gill smoke 14:27, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Nice work there. I really am terrible for reusing card names. --Kevan 18:22, 4 September 2008 (BST)

Maybe a certain someone should add corner values to their cards--Gill smoke 14:32, 5 September 2008 (BST)

There are 28 cards in the first 2,000 that deal with zombies and the undead in their ruletexts, and 12 more in the next 300. Yeah, I imported them all into Excel, but they only got there via Word and, if you'll believe me, BASIC (I had to write a program to put the attributes in order). Quite labor-intensive. I have the Excel file if you want it, but it's pretty ungainly... Binarius 20:52, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Maybe at the 3000 point if you are still around. I left a link to my email on my user page, just click my name in my signature.--Gill smoke 14:10, 8 September 2008 (BST)

If anyone Java-oriented is interested in this sort of thing, my user page is now a Java class which reads in a text file of Dvorakish cards and spits them out in .csv format. If you have any questions, feel free to ask here or on my user talk page. Jtwe 15:59, 11 September 2008 (BST)

looks like Bucky wants to make the most varied colored cards stat. --Gill smoke 14:10, 8 September 2008 (BST)

Responses and Reactions

...By which I mean any Action allowing the player to "play immediately in response to" some particular occurrence, or any equivalent ability to play out of turn, but only under specific circumstances. Do these cards count toward the following turn's Action limit? Binarius 01:38, 14 August 2008 (BST)

The general rule is if it is ambiguous put it to a vote. I'd vote no because the card played didn't happen on your turn. On the cards I made like that I put the disclaimer in there, "Does not count as your action for you next turn." --Gill smoke 17:28, 26 August 2008 (BST)

If there's no consensus on this issue, then I will venture to suggest that cards played out of turn do not count toward the following turn's limits unless specified, since they explicitly allow you to play them outside of your turn. Comments? Binarius 01:10, 30 August 2008 (BST)

To quote the rules, "You can play one Thing and one Action per turn." You are entitled to one Action per turn, whoever the turn belongs to. On the next player's turn, your Action priveleges return. This would mean that you may not play an Instant (yeah, I play Magic) in the same turn that you play another Action or Instant.
Until Instants get their own section in the rules page, this is what the rules say.--ChippyYYZ 00:57, 11 September 2008 (BST)

Cards by redtoast

Whoa, Hey, What Are We Doin'

I think you mean to swap positions of the draw and discard. As worded it could mean they would be used in the oppisite way; draw from the face up pile and discard (and destroy) to face down pile, that violates the "no special rules" clause. If you intend that, just make it a thing, otherwise you might want to reword for clarity. --Gill smoke 17:44, 29 August 2008 (BST)

Apothecary

Potions don't seem to be worth much if you only need them for an Action ability that lets you play an Action card... Thing, perhaps? Or two Actions? Binarius 23:05, 30 August 2008 (BST)

Apothecary's actions can be played at any time. The potions turn your actions into instants.--ChippyYYZ 02:01, 31 August 2008 (BST)

Oops, of course. Silly me. Binarius 07:35, 31 August 2008 (BST)

Destiny

What incentive would either player have to choose a number lower than ten? It would seem that getting repeatedly shuffled back into the deck is this card's...destiny? Binarius 23:57, 20 September 2008 (BST)

Cards by Binarius

Quinquiplicate

This one seems to violate the "no special rules" rule. Does it wear off at the end of the turn?--ChippyYYZ 00:57, 11 September 2008 (BST)

I envisioned this to involve a permanent alteration of the affected cards' texts (e.g., in pencil), in the same sense as some other cards in the deck, like Speling Erorr (1-100) or Create Sequence (1501-1600). So it would be permanent, but not "invisible". Binarius 08:18, 11 September 2008 (BST)

Pink Is The New Black

No, Black is the new green. Go back to 1701-1800 to see for yourself. I love you card. I think there is a way to change the Title text color somehow, I know it does it for white. Kevan can you help? I was looking a the shade closely for my Undead Purge I wanted an off white, but I kept having to darken the color for readability.--Gill smoke 21:51, 3 October 2008 (BST)

Sorry, missed this. Looking at the source for Template:Card, there's just a kludge that uses black text only if the background colour is pure white (one of several variations on 'fff'). Feel free to add a new variable to specify a text colour, if you know your way around wiki parser functions. --Kevan 17:36, 17 October 2008 (BST)

Hot in Here

"Hand size limit 3. Actions must be played as soon as they are drawn." The card should probably say that this counts for all players. - Zt, 16:03, 17 October 2008 (CET)

I thought that would be understood from the lack of specific reference to the card's controller...? Binarius 21:12, 17 October 2008 (BST)

No One's Head Shall Be Higher Than King's

"No player may control more Things than you do." - what happens if they already have more Things when you play it? --Kevan 20:29, 25 October 2008 (BST)

I guess it's ambiguous whether everybody needs to destroy their Things or you get to play more; the former was my intent. Corrected, thanks! Binarius 21:41, 25 October 2008 (BST)

LackeyCCG port...

...is not going to be possible. I just tried it, and Lackey doesn't let you have more than 300 cards in a deck. Even then, I found a workaround. When I put 600 cards into a deck and loaded it, it showed 599 cards in the deck, "-1" in the discard, and a gray card in the deck that crashed the program when I dragged it.

Anyone have any other ideas for how to play this deck online?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by The T (talk • contribs) 16:50, 11 September 2008.

I doubt you're going to get through more than 300 cards in a single game. If you did, and if it was really important to keep playing, you could abandon the game, make a fresh, random deck that also included the cards that were in play (and in hands) at the end of the last game, and start with those in play.

Which might be slightly easier through DvorakMUSH, although I forget how dynamic the engine is - you could just delete all the cards in the discard pile and add an equal amount of new random cards to the draw pile, provided you didn't mind breaking the odd discard-pile-digging card. --Kevan 18:58, 11 September 2008 (BST)

• nod* Actually, I rolled it over in my head and thought of another idea basically like that. Just make a random list of 100 cards, add each one individually, and play a game with it. If you do run out of cards, I have to test if this is possible but: If Lackey will let you load a deck in the middle of the game without removing everything, then you could read the next 100 cards on your random list of all cards and add them to another deck to add. So I'm going to get back to doing this--for some reason I had the crazy idea of making template cards for each color card, just to add some more flavor to the game. I'd be glad to upload it when I'm done if people are interested, and try to maintain it when I can. The T 19:24, 11 September 2008 (BST)

Cards by NARF

ALL YOUR BASE

"Action - Reaction" Reaction to what? "Take one card from the opponents discard pile." There's only one discard pile by default.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gill smoke (talk • contribs) 17:30, 18 September 2008.

Is this better?--NARF 13:06, 22 September 2008 (BST)

Yep --Gill smoke 21:04, 25 September 2008 (BST)

Clean Slate

Do you discard your hand, or does everybody? Or is "redraw hand" meant to imply that everyone else must discard their hands first too? Binarius 23:45, 18 September 2008 (BST)

Is this better?--NARF 13:06, 22 September 2008 (BST)

Deadly Switch

"When deck runs out, switch again" is redundant because this is already built into the Basic Rules. Also, please note that this type of conditional mechanic on an Action card violates the Infinite deck's "No special rules" rule. Binarius 23:24, 18 September 2008 (BST)

Is this better? --NARF 22:18, 19 September 2008 (BST)

That works great. Just be careful to phrase Actions so that their effects happen "instantaneously" and you don't need to remember what they said after they've been buried in the discard pile. Incidentally, the three cards you just added (No Corner For YOU!, Action Lock, and Thing Lock) all have the same problem. Cards that say things like "for the next five turns" or "for the rest of the game" should be done as Things. Binarius 23:55, 19 September 2008 (BST)

Is this better?--NARF 13:06, 22 September 2008 (BST)

Yep. And welcome to the party. --Gill smoke 21:07, 25 September 2008 (BST)

Election

"All players choose someone at the table to vote for (They may not vote for themselves). That player may choose if each player can draw a card next turn."

Does "that player" mean the person receiving the most votes? What about ties? Goldenboots 14:50, 16 October 2008 (BST)

Cards by ChippyYYZ

The Red Wheelbarrow

Action: Eliminate a player who disagrees with your interpretation of the poem?
Action: Recognize 'glazed' as the key to understanding the poem? or
Action: This does nothing? --Gill smoke 14:14, 9 October 2008 (BST)

I'm going to go with "Action: This does nothing, but don't tell any of your opponents or you'll look stupid." Binarius 20:09, 9 October 2008 (BST)

I think the etomology of the word Depends may possess some significance, but as an action, I don't think it actually does anything.--ChippyYYZ 21:01, 9 October 2008 (BST)

Ha Ha Ha! I Switched Your Bullets With Marshmallows!

I'm afraid the semicolon honor goes to It's A Kind Of Magic (1-100). My question, though: what would the grammar gods say about your use of a hyphen to join an adverb and an adjective? Militant English Teacher would not be pleased... =P Binarius 00:13, 16 October 2008 (BST)

You know it is still a run on. A period would serve you better. --Gill smoke 12:33, 16 October 2008 (BST)

Amnesia

"Target player removes his hand from the game. At the beginning of each of his turns, he may put a random card from it back into his hand." That's an Action creating a long-lasting effect. Better turn it into a Thing: "When this comes into play, target player removes his hand from the game. At the beginning of each of his turns, he may put a random card from it back into his hand." - Zt, 12:21, 31 October 2008 (CET)

Guns. Lots of Guns

"Indestructible. When this comes into play, give each player 8 Gun Tokens. Global Action: If you control a gun, destroy a thing other than this, or eliminate a player with no guns. If there are no guns in play, put this card in the discard pile."

To use the Global Action, do I have to destroy a Gun token? If not, why give me more than one? Goldenboots 03:56, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

You don't have to destroy a gun you control, but other players may try to destroy your guns and eliminate you.--ChippyYYZ 21:42, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Mass Duplication and Rule Edit Proposal

In Goldenboots's most recent edits, the entire header and Special Rules sections and a few dozen cards were duplicated. I believe I have corrected this, retaining all of the old cards and including the two that redtoast contributed, but the Recent Changes page seems to think that I've missed a few hundred bytes, and I'm sure it couldn't hurt for someone to check my work.

This most likely would not have happened if the edits in question had been done to the Card List section instead of the entire page. To address this, I would like to propose the following changes to the "rules for adding cards" section at the top of the page:

• Don't add more than three cards at a time; give someone else a chance to add some, before you add any more.
• Use the Edit link to the right of the Card List header to add cards instead of the edit tab at the top of the page, and make sure you put your cards at the bottom of the page.

Comments? Binarius 06:14, 26 September 2008 (BST)

It's the first time this has happened in the year and a half this deck's been going; I don't think we need to give new visitors the mental load of an extra and puzzlingly oblique instruction. --Kevan 13:40, 26 September 2008 (BST)

oops - sorry Goldenboots 01:27, 27 September 2008 (BST)

Random Idea: Add the 4 cards from the Game Rules

I thought it would be interesting to add them, but couldn't decide how best to do it. I originally wanted to just divide them into 4 cards like on the side bar. But 1. They don't really line up properly even if we resize them, and 2. They can't be added to the spoiler that way. Should I just edit out the art only, and make the cards with the art in them? Should we just have them be artless? Is this is a stupid idea to begin with? =O The T 18:40, 3 October 2008 (BST)

I think they have already been added once. The zombie attack card inspired the zombie token madness I have. --Gill smoke 21:50, 3 October 2008 (BST)

I checked, and they aren't there... The T 07:12, 4 October 2008 (BST)

Go ahead and add them. I'd say go artless but if you want to take the time to add the picture into the card the card template tag you want to use is "|image= ", I think there are some examples in the archive, I remember seeing one with a banner ad on it. --Gill smoke 02:34, 6 October 2008 (BST)

I got this. I'm doing it in two parts to follow the update rule. The images are not the right size and the PNG of the cement mixer looks bad. I tried to fix it and failed. --Gill smoke 13:48, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Cards by Goldenboots

Secured Lockbox

"If Secured Lockbox is destroyed by a player other than its owner, both the destroyer and the owner win the game. If Secured Lockbox is destroyed by its owner, the owner is eliminated. Secured Lockbox cannot be destroyed." - am I missing something, or can the first two conditions never be met? --Kevan 16:58, 11 October 2008 (BST)

I'm assuming you need a) one of those cards that says "Destroy target thing, even if it can't be destroyed" (to which the typical response is a thing that says "This thing cannot be destroyed, at all, even by that other card", ad infinitum), or b) something to edit the text of the card (change the "cannot" in the last sentence to "bagel" or something). Jtwe 17:26, 11 October 2008 (BST)

Yes, I was thinking of someone winning by changing the text of Secured Lockbox. I do think a card that says it can destroy even non-destroyable cards would also work, because that is more specific. I want to mention that the old (2000-2007) Rules covered conflict much more clearly than the new ones do - or am I missing something? Goldenboots 03:03, 12 October 2008 (BST)

The Sacred Writings of (your name here) Are Inviolate!

Nice card. I like "change a card's text"-cards. There won't be much use for it though, or am I wrong?- Zt, 16:58, 28 October 2008, 16:59 (CET)

Maybe not. If you had the Decline and Fall of Ng... card in your hand you could "protect" it from self-erasure by setting this card up first. Or if you had a slow guaranteed win you might want to protect a key card. Goldenboots 05:12, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Junk DNA

I understand your intention but I think your "junk" class of tokens is a little vague and can change quickly. In this hundred there are no tokens types that qualify. in other sets there are cards that just make money tokens then a new thing could then destroy money token to perform an action. when the modifying thing got destroyed then what? What if I have tokens without a maker say from an action? --Gill smoke 15:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

"A 'junk' token type is a token type where no current rule names the token type for a purpose other than creation. " I don't think it's vague. If there's a card IN PLAY that has a use for the tokens, they're not junk. If there's a card in play that only creates the token, it's junk - there are such cards. If the token has survived past its use, because the card that created it is gone and now no card refers to it, then it's junk. Yes, which tokens are junk can change quickly - since many cards refer to Money tokens (and a few to Energy or Gold tokens) a token could go from junk to not-junk as such cards appear, or go from not-junk to junk as cards which use them disappear or are altered. Anyway, the test of junk is: is there a card in play right now which does anything to this type of token -by name - except create them? If no, it's junk. Goldenboots 21:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Here are some currently visible cards that would create junk tokens:

David Blaine: Action: Put a thing into your hand and replace it with a thing from your hand. Action: Replace a word on a thing with "Ace of Clubs". Action: Give an Ace of Clubs Token to a player.

Chinese Bakery Entrapment: Play under the control of another player. The controller of this card may not use any action abilities other than the one on this card. Action: Create 10 fortune cookie tokens.

Zombie: Your hand size is reduced by one Action: Destroy living thing, create Zombie token in its place.

Refried Beans: Whenever you would draw a card, you may choose to draw from the top of the discard pile; if you do, gain a Flatulence token.

Token Clock: When this comes into play, put eight Sand tokens into play. If no tokens of any type are in play, you win the game. Action: Destroy a token.

Bruce: While this card is in play, the title of all non-token Things in play is 'Bruce', and all tokens are Bruce tokens instead of their normal type. Action: Put a Bruce token into play

John Stuart Mill: If the total number of Tokens ever decreases, the Action below automatically triggers (under your control). Action: Add 5 Utilitarian Tokens to the game and redistribute the ownership of Tokens as ordered by you, but so that nobody's total number of Tokens goes down.

Baker: Action: Put a dozen Food tokens into play.

None of these cards make these tokens do anything but sit there and be tokens. It's unlikely another card will come along and do something with, say, fortune cookie tokens. Goldenboots 21:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I actually have a bunch of food sacrifice cards in my backlog, and as Bucky is always reminding me the deck is infinite. I know I'm being a little picky but look Bruce is a good example of changing rules I mentioned. All tokens get changed When Bruce is in play, that is not only at creation. My fortune cookies are now Bruces. My opponent's Bruce tokens are just a Bruce and are not modified. The Bruce card goes away and I'm left with 10 fortune cookies. I win, wait it's supposed to be different types. As I said I get the intention, I'm not sure how to change the class of tokens to better reflect what you want. --Gill smoke 15:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

When Bruce is in play, no-one could win with Junk DNA, because there would only be one token type, Bruce tokens. If Bruce went out of play (see discussion under "Bruce") all tokens would revert to their old names, and any remaining Bruce tokens, made with Bruce's action ability, would be a junk token type. I'm happy with the idea that what is a junk token type varies from play to play. Yes, having ten fortune cookie tokens that are a junk type doesn't win you the game via Junk DNA. I don't think a food sacrifice card which said, for example, "Sacrifice four tokens that are food to make an opponent discard a card" would prevent fortune cookie tokens, soup tokens, etc, from being a junk type. The Junk DNA definition says the token type has to be named for a purpose other that creation - a general card like my example doesn't name the type, fortune cookie tokens.

Recursive Suicide Pact

"No Reactions may be played" looks suspiciously like a backdoor secret rule.-Bucky 20:09, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'm changing it to "No reactions may be played TO R.S.P". In any case, RSP will normally end the game with everyone eliminated, the exception being when somebody has an escape card against elimination. I think I'm right that if I drew R.S.P. I would play it and expect to win, unless those darn escape cards rescued someone else. Goldenboots 05:26, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I would not expect you to win. You would eventually end up on the wrong end of the Pact yourself. -Bucky 16:38, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

And yet I am quietly confident. The trick is to name yourself. Goldenboots 01:34, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I see a couple of reactions to being eliminated (not to RSP) about 20 cards up that could be handy in eliminating yourself. Just a thought.--ChippyYYZ 02:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

If you name yourself, you get eliminated. Just because you get eliminated last doesn't make you any less eliminated.-Bucky 04:59, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Chippy: I think I made those. You may be right, they aren't played in response to RSP but to elimination. That's fine. Bucky: If everyone else is eliminated, for one shining second I'm alone in the game - don't I win? Then, yes, I'm eliminated.

There's no rule that says you win if everyone else is eliminated; it's just implied. But there are a few other cards, such as Get Out Of Jail Free (page 2) and more importantly On Vacation(page 4) that imply that winning by eliminating everyone else is not immediate.-Bucky 19:03, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I would argue that, while winning is not "automatic" when everyone else is eliminated, under normal circumstances it's what will happen. In that "one shining second", you can propose rule changes freely and pass them by unanimous vote. ----

Unofficial IRC Channel

irc://irc.freenode.net/dvorakgame

I should be there. I'm assuming you all know how IRC works. If not, it's basically a way to send text over the internet. If you want to use it, you need a client, such as:

• Chatzilla, a Firefox addon
• XChat, for Linux and Windows
• MIRC, for Windows
• IRC at Work, web-based CGI client

For more help go to http://irchelp.org/. --Pongo 10:32, 25 October 2008 (BST)

I've registered the channel, I hope Kevan doesn't mind. --Pongo 15:07, 25 October 2008 (BST)

I mean, I probably should have technically used ##dvorakgame as it is "unofficial". --Pongo 15:13, 25 October 2008 (BST)

I'm happy to make it official if people are using it. Don't forget that we already have a MUSH where you can actually play the game, though. --Kevan 16:35, 25 October 2008 (BST)

Of course. --Pongo 16:44, 25 October 2008 (BST)

Okay, seeing as nobody's interested, I've dropped the channel. --Pongo 09:28, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Archiving this Page?

It does seem to be getting rather long. --Pongo 16:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah but where to start? we need to distill some meaning from the page before making a new one. that and the open issues need to carry forward. --Gill smoke 15:37, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps splitting the page somehow into a "Cards by" page and a page for things that aren't specific to individual cards? Binarius 20:13, 3 November 2008 (UTC)