Difference between revisions of "Myth CCG set"

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This is a CCG with influences from many other Dvorak decks, commercial CCG's, boardgames, etc.  The idea is to allow locations, heroes, creatures, objects, etc. from various legends, myths, historical events, cultures, etc. to interact in a common "world".  [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth Monomyth] concepts also strongly influence the game.
This is a CCG with influences from many other Dvorak decks, commercial CCG's, boardgames, etc.  The idea is to allow locations, heroes, creatures, objects, etc. from various legends, myths, historical events, cultures, movie universes, etc. to interact in a common "world".  [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth Monomyth] concepts also strongly influence the game.


It is currently under construction. Very little is concrete at this point.
Everything about this is currently '''under construction''', especially the rules. Everything is subject to change.


==Special Rules==
==Special Rules==


=== Atrributes ===
=== General Conventions ===
All cards have '''6 basic attributes''' that are common throughout the game.  These attributes may have different meaning in game terms depending on the card type, but generally indicate the strength of that particular attribute for the thing or action described on the card:
The following general conventions are followed:


* Spirit: The "spiritual" or supernatural strength of the card.  This may also be interpreted as "magic".  Deities and supernatural creatures will have high Spirit values.
==== Areas ====
* Mind: The mental strength of the card.  Smarts, brains, intelligence, etc.
There are two types of "areas" where cards are played during the game.
* Heart: The emotional strength of the card.  A card with a big Heart number may be very intimidating (if an enemy or challenge) or very motivating (if an ally).
* Will:  The strength of will of the card.  Humans will have the highest Will values because of their reliance on their free-will.
* Skill: A general catch-all for any physical skill.  Fighting, climbing, etc.
* Power: The pure physical power of the card.  This includes strength, stamina, etc.


Attribute values will normally be between 0 and 10.
*'''Home Area''': Directly in front of the player, their side of the table.
*'''Common Area''': Between the two players.


=== Effect ===
Cards are generally positioned so that they are "top up" for the player to which the card applies.  For example if a player plays a "Challenge : Temptation" card on his opponent, he will play it "top up" to his opponent, "bottom up" to himself in the Common Area.
 
==== Atrributes ====
All Thing cards and some Action cards have '''6 basic attributes''' that are common throughout the game.  These attributes may have different meaning in game terms depending on the card type, but generally indicate the strength of that particular attribute for the thing or action described on the card:
 
* '''Spirit:''' The "spiritual" or supernatural strength of the card.  This may also be interpreted as "magic".  Deities and supernatural creatures will have high Spirit values.
* '''Mind:''' The mental strength of the card.  Smarts, brains, intelligence, etc. are all covered by this value.  High tech gadgetry will also have high Mind values.
* '''Heart:''' The emotional strength of the card.  A card with a big Heart number may be very intimidating (if an enemy or challenge) or very motivating (if an ally).
* '''Will:'''  The strength of will of the card.  Humans will have the highest Will values because of their reliance on their free-will.
* '''Skill:''' A general catch-all for any physical skill.  Fighting, climbing, etc.
* '''Power:''' The pure physical power of the card.  This includes strength, stamina, etc.  An Ogre may have low Skill but high Power for example.
 
Attribute values will normally be between 0 and 10 for all cards other than Challenge cards.
 
The way players defeat Challenges is by adding their Hero values with values from Allies, Items, etc. and achieving a total greater than the Challenge values (which likewise can be increased with the addition of Enemy, Item, Location, etc. values) for every attribute.
 
''Question: How to scale the values such that it is a little more objective...perhaps giving examples will help, ie. Zues = 10 Spirit, etc.''
 
==== Effects ====
All cards have an Effect on the game:
All cards have an Effect on the game:
* Beneficial: beneficial to the Hero, card values add to the Hero's values
* Beneficial: beneficial to the Hero, card values add to the Hero's values
* Malicious: against the Hero, card values add to the Challenge's values
* Malicious: against the Hero, card values add to the Challenge's values
* Neutral: no obvious benefit or detriment.  May have meaningful impact though based on the description text.
* Neutral: no effect on values.  May have meaningful impact though based on actions, special effects, etc.


These effects may be indicated by using a term on the card that is appropriate for the card type.  For example, a Beneficial Being card will be called "Ally" and a Malicious Being card will be called "Enemy".
These effects may be indicated by using a term on the card that is appropriate for the card type.  For example, a Beneficial Being card will be called "Ally" and a Malicious Being card will be called "Enemy".
Line 36: Line 51:
=== Card Types ===
=== Card Types ===
Instead of the generic Things and Actions, the following card types exist:
Instead of the generic Things and Actions, the following card types exist:
==== Hero ====
Heroes are a subtype of Thing.  These cards represent the protagonist of the Mythic adventure.  Hero will generally have (relatively) low attribute values as they represent a hero before he undertakes the Challenges that await.  As the game progresses, the other cards will  increase his attribute values.


==== Being ====
==== Being ====
Line 45: Line 57:
Beings have further subtypes of:
Beings have further subtypes of:
* Human
* Human
* Humanoid
* Creature
* Creature
* Deity
* Deity
Line 51: Line 64:
* Beneficial: Ally
* Beneficial: Ally
* Malicious: Enemy
* Malicious: Enemy
* Neutral: Neutral
* Neutral: Messenger, Oracle, etc.
* Hero: Heroes are a special subtype of Being.  These cards represent the protagonist of the Mythic adventure and the player.  Heroes will generally have (relatively) low attribute values as they represent a hero before he undertakes the Challenges that await.  As the game progresses, the other cards will  increase his attribute values.  There can only be at most one Hero per player in play at once.


==== Item ====
==== Item ====
Items are a subtype of Thing.  Items can only be played onto Beings, unless noted otherwise.
Items are a subtype of Thing.  Items represent physical objects and can only be played onto Heroes or Beings, unless noted otherwise.
Items have many subtypes including:
Items have many subtypes including:
* Weapon
* Weapon
Line 62: Line 76:
Items have the following effect terms:
Items have the following effect terms:
* Beneficial: Help
* Beneficial: Help
* Malicious: Hinder
* Malicious: Hinderance
* Neutral: Neutral
 
==== Aspect ====
Aspects are a subtype of Thing.  Aspects represent non-physical concepts and can only be played onto Heroes or Beings, unless noted otherwise.
Aspects have many subtypes including:
* Quality
* Bestowal
* Experience
 
Items have the following effect terms:
* Beneficial: Virtue, Gift, Blessing
* Malicious: Vice, Curse,
* Neutral: Neutral
* Neutral: Neutral


Line 74: Line 100:
Items have the following effect terms:
Items have the following effect terms:
* Beneficial: Help
* Beneficial: Help
* Malicious: Hinder
* Malicious: Hinderance
* Neutral: Neutral
* Neutral: Special (generally a Special Location will be both a Help & Hinder depending on specific situations)


==== Challenge ====
==== Challenge ====
Line 82: Line 108:
* Test (a player would normally play these on himself, because successfully completing the Test will gain him additional cards)
* Test (a player would normally play these on himself, because successfully completing the Test will gain him additional cards)
* Trial (a player would normally play these on his opponent, because it delays the other player and could cause him to lose cards)
* Trial (a player would normally play these on his opponent, because it delays the other player and could cause him to lose cards)
* Quest(this is a major challenge to the player.  Winning the game requires successfully completing an agreed upon number of Quests)


==== Events ====
==== Events ====
Events are a subtype of Action.  Each Event specifies the conditions required for it to be played.  Events may effect any other type of card or may trigger other events.
Events are a subtype of Action.  Each Event specifies the conditions required for it to be played and effects it has on the game.  Events may effect any other type of card or may trigger other events.
 
Events are used to cause interaction between the players and cards.
 
=== Rules ===


=== Rule Ideas ===
During the '''Play''' stage, the following rules apply to the various Card Types, unless otherwise noted on the card:


This is an area for ideas about how the game should work.
* Only one Hero card per player can be in play at a time.
* Only one copy of each Being card per player can be in play at once.
* Item cards can only be played onto Hero or Being cards.
* Quality cards can only by played onto cards as indicated.
* Hero, Being:Ally, and Item cards are played into the Home Area directly in front of the player.
* Challenge cards are played into the Common Area between the two players.
* Only one Location card per Challenge can be in play at once.  Playing a new Location card causes the old Location card to be discarded.
* Challenges are played such that they appear "top up" for the player to which the Challenge is made.


===(Possible) Cards to Make===
===(Possible) Cards to Make===


*Greek Mythology
*Greek Mythology
*Norse Mythology
*Lord of the Rings
*Lord of the Rings
*Star Wars
*Star Wars
*Matrix
*Gladiator
*Gladiator


== Card List ==
== Card List ==


=== Samples ===
{{card
{{card
|title=Pegasus
|title=Pegasus
|type=Being : Creature : Ally
|type=Being : Creature : Ally
|bgcolor=006688
|bgcolor=3399CC
|text='''Spirit:''' 6<br/>'''Mind:''' 4<br/>'''Heart:''' 8<br/>'''Will:''' 5<br/>'''Skill:''' 3<br/>'''Power:''' 6<br/>
|text=[[Image:pegasus_logo.gif|100px|right]]
'''Spirit:''' 6<br/>'''Mind:''' 4<br/>'''Heart:''' 8<br/>'''Will:''' 5<br/>'''Skill:''' 3<br/>'''Power:''' 6<br/>
<hr/>
<hr/>
If a Location is in play, its Power is reduced to zero.
If a Location is in play, its Power is reduced to zero.
|flavortext=The winged horse from Greek mythology carries the hero to his task.
|flavortext=The winged horse from Greek mythology carries the hero to his task.
}}
{{card
|title=Dave the Brave
|type=Being : Human : Hero
|bgcolor=3333FF
|text='''Spirit:''' 2<br/>'''Mind:''' 3<br/>'''Heart:''' 2<br/>'''Will:''' 3<br/>'''Skill:''' 2<br/>'''Power:''' 4<br/>
<hr/>This card represents a typical Hero.  One attribute with a value of 4, two with a value of 3, and the rest with a value of 2.
|flavortext=Just your typical hero
}}
}}


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|title=Darth Vader
|title=Darth Vader
|type=Being : Human : Enemy
|type=Being : Human : Enemy
|bgcolor=000000
|bgcolor=006699
|text='''Spirit:''' 5<br/>'''Mind:''' 7<br/>'''Heart:''' 8<br/>'''Will:''' 9<br/>'''Skill:''' 7<br/>'''Power:''' 8<br/>
|text=[[Image:vaderb.jpg|100px|right]]
<hr/>
'''Spirit:''' 5<br/>'''Mind:''' 7<br/>'''Heart:''' 8<br/>'''Will:''' 9<br/>'''Skill:''' 7<br/>'''Power:''' 8<br/>
Designate an opponent's Ally to be considered an Enemy for this Challenge.
<hr/>Designate an opponent's Ally to be considered an Enemy for this Challenge.
|flavortext=If you only knew the power of the Dark Side...  
|flavortext=If you only knew the power of the Dark Side...  
}}
}}


{{card
{{card
|title=Typical Human
|title=The Tale is Told
|type=Being : Human : Ally
|type=Event : Call to Adventure
|bgcolor=006688
|bgcolor=e4181a
|text='''Spirit:''' 2<br/>'''Mind:''' 2<br/>'''Heart:''' 2<br/>'''Will:''' 2<br/>'''Skill:''' 2<br/>'''Power:''' 2<br/>
|text=Your Hero must accept a Challenge if one is in play.  If not, search the Discard pile for a Challenge and put it in play.  Search the Draw pile if none is found in the Discard pile.
<hr/>This card represents a typical humans attribute scores
|flavortext=Theseus learns the tale of the beast and the terrible sacrifice to appease it...
|flavortext=Just your typical Joe Six-pack
}}
 
{{card
|title=Tragic Flaw Revealed
|type=Event : Mandatory : Lasting
|bgcolor=e4181a
|text=[[Image:AchillesH.gif|75px|right]]
Search your Draw Pile for a Quality with a negative effect.  Play this onto your Hero.
|flavortext=Thetis dipped the infant Achilles in the river Styx, holding onto him by his heel...
}}
}}


{{card
{{card
|title=The Coliseum
|title=The Colosseum
|type=Location : Structure : Hinder
|type=Location : Structure : Hinder
|text='''Spirit:''' 0<br/>'''Mind:''' 0<br/>'''Heart:''' 5<br/>'''Will:''' 0<br/>'''Skill:''' 0<br/>'''Power:''' 0<br/>
|text=[[Image:Colosseum.jpg|100px|right]]
'''Spirit:''' 0<br/>'''Mind:''' 0<br/>'''Heart:''' 5<br/>'''Will:''' 0<br/>'''Skill:''' 0<br/>'''Power:''' 0<br/>
|flavortext=Many a brave gladiator has taken his final breath here, even as its massiveness has taken his breath away
|flavortext=Many a brave gladiator has taken his final breath here, even as its massiveness has taken his breath away
|bgcolor=008800
|bgcolor=009933
}}
 
{{card
|title=Mt. Olympus
|type=Location : Structure : Help/Hinder
|text=[[Image:Summit.JPG|100px|right]]
'''Spirit:''' 6<br/>'''Mind:''' 0<br/>'''Heart:''' 7<br/>'''Will:''' 0<br/>'''Skill:''' 0<br/>'''Power:''' 0<br/>
<hr/>If you have Greek Allies in play, this card is a Help, otherwise a Hinder.
|bgcolor=009933
}}
}}


Line 149: Line 217:
{{card
{{card
|title=Stormbringer
|title=Stormbringer
|type=Item: Weapon : Helpful
|type=Item: Weapon : Help
|bgcolor=886600
|bgcolor=886600
|text='''Spirit:''' 0<br/>'''Mind:''' 0<br/>'''Heart:''' 0<br/>'''Will:''' 0<br/>'''Skill:''' 3<br/>'''Power:''' 3<br/>
|text=[[Image:swrd.jpg|100px|right]]
|flavortext=A legendary blade belonging to a hacking wizard, Stormbringer is both deadly and easy to use.
'''Spirit:''' 0<br/>'''Mind:''' 0<br/>'''Heart:''' 0<br/>'''Will:''' 0<br/>'''Skill:''' 3<br/>'''Power:''' 3<br/>
|flavortext=A legendary blade that once belonged to a wizard, Stormbringer is both deadly and easy to use.
}}
 
{{card
|title=Justice
|type=Aspect : Quality : Virtue
|bgcolor=FF9900
|text=[[Image:scales.jpg|100px|right]]
'''Spirit:''' 0<br/>'''Mind:''' 2<br/>'''Heart:''' 0<br/>'''Will:''' 5<br/>'''Skill:''' 0<br/>'''Power:''' 0<br/>
<hr/>
<br/>
|flavortext=Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another ~ Zech 7:9 NKJV
}}
}}


{{card
{{card
|title=Zandraa
|title=Test
|type=Being : Diety : Enemy
|type=Event : test
|cornervalue=0
|bgcolor=e4181a
|bgcolor=000000
|cornervalue = [[Image:Cards.gif]]10
|text='''Spirit:''' 28<br/>'''Mind:''' 3<br/>'''Heart:''' 2*<br/>'''Will:''' 3<br/>'''Skill:''' 5<br/>'''Power:''' 12<br/><hr/>
|image=Cards.gif
Zandraa has a Heart of 10 during Challenges
|text=Your Hero must accept a Challenge if one is in play.  If not, search the Discard pile for a Challenge and put it in playSearch the Draw pile if none is found in the Discard pile.
|flavortext=Once a human sorceress, Zandraa discovered the twin secrets of Immortality and True PowerAlthough powerful, she still suffers from many human flaws.  
|flavortext=Theseus learns the tale of the beast and the terrible sacrifice to appease it...
|longtext=true
}}
}}

Latest revision as of 18:01, 21 September 2010

Myth CCG
Designer dc0nklin
Date 4-29-2007
Players 2+
This is a CCG set, a set of cards which can be used to construct personalised decks, in the style of a collectable card game.
To play Dvorak: Draw five cards each and leave the rest as a draw pile. On your turn, draw a card from the draw pile and play one Thing and/or one Action. (See the full rules.)
Cards.gif Print this deck

Telnet.gif Generate MUSHcode
Cards.gif Generate Lackey export
Mtgcard.gif Generate Apprentice CSV

Padlock.gif
This deck is locked. Further cards should not be added - leave feedback on the talk page.

This is a CCG with influences from many other Dvorak decks, commercial CCG's, boardgames, etc. The idea is to allow locations, heroes, creatures, objects, etc. from various legends, myths, historical events, cultures, movie universes, etc. to interact in a common "world". Monomyth concepts also strongly influence the game.

Everything about this is currently under construction, especially the rules. Everything is subject to change.

Special Rules

General Conventions

The following general conventions are followed:

Areas

There are two types of "areas" where cards are played during the game.

  • Home Area: Directly in front of the player, their side of the table.
  • Common Area: Between the two players.

Cards are generally positioned so that they are "top up" for the player to which the card applies. For example if a player plays a "Challenge : Temptation" card on his opponent, he will play it "top up" to his opponent, "bottom up" to himself in the Common Area.

Atrributes

All Thing cards and some Action cards have 6 basic attributes that are common throughout the game. These attributes may have different meaning in game terms depending on the card type, but generally indicate the strength of that particular attribute for the thing or action described on the card:

  • Spirit: The "spiritual" or supernatural strength of the card. This may also be interpreted as "magic". Deities and supernatural creatures will have high Spirit values.
  • Mind: The mental strength of the card. Smarts, brains, intelligence, etc. are all covered by this value. High tech gadgetry will also have high Mind values.
  • Heart: The emotional strength of the card. A card with a big Heart number may be very intimidating (if an enemy or challenge) or very motivating (if an ally).
  • Will: The strength of will of the card. Humans will have the highest Will values because of their reliance on their free-will.
  • Skill: A general catch-all for any physical skill. Fighting, climbing, etc.
  • Power: The pure physical power of the card. This includes strength, stamina, etc. An Ogre may have low Skill but high Power for example.

Attribute values will normally be between 0 and 10 for all cards other than Challenge cards.

The way players defeat Challenges is by adding their Hero values with values from Allies, Items, etc. and achieving a total greater than the Challenge values (which likewise can be increased with the addition of Enemy, Item, Location, etc. values) for every attribute.

Question: How to scale the values such that it is a little more objective...perhaps giving examples will help, ie. Zues = 10 Spirit, etc.

Effects

All cards have an Effect on the game:

  • Beneficial: beneficial to the Hero, card values add to the Hero's values
  • Malicious: against the Hero, card values add to the Challenge's values
  • Neutral: no effect on values. May have meaningful impact though based on actions, special effects, etc.

These effects may be indicated by using a term on the card that is appropriate for the card type. For example, a Beneficial Being card will be called "Ally" and a Malicious Being card will be called "Enemy".

Card Types

Instead of the generic Things and Actions, the following card types exist:

Being

Beings are a subtype of Thing. There can only be at most one copy of each being in play at once, unless noted otherwise.

Beings have further subtypes of:

  • Human
  • Humanoid
  • Creature
  • Deity

Beings have the following effect terms:

  • Beneficial: Ally
  • Malicious: Enemy
  • Neutral: Messenger, Oracle, etc.
  • Hero: Heroes are a special subtype of Being. These cards represent the protagonist of the Mythic adventure and the player. Heroes will generally have (relatively) low attribute values as they represent a hero before he undertakes the Challenges that await. As the game progresses, the other cards will increase his attribute values. There can only be at most one Hero per player in play at once.

Item

Items are a subtype of Thing. Items represent physical objects and can only be played onto Heroes or Beings, unless noted otherwise. Items have many subtypes including:

  • Weapon
  • Armor
  • Potion

Items have the following effect terms:

  • Beneficial: Help
  • Malicious: Hinderance
  • Neutral: Neutral

Aspect

Aspects are a subtype of Thing. Aspects represent non-physical concepts and can only be played onto Heroes or Beings, unless noted otherwise. Aspects have many subtypes including:

  • Quality
  • Bestowal
  • Experience

Items have the following effect terms:

  • Beneficial: Virtue, Gift, Blessing
  • Malicious: Vice, Curse,
  • Neutral: Neutral

Location

Locations are a subtype of Thing. Locations can only be played onto Challenges, unless noted otherwise. If another is put in play, the old one is discarded. Locations have many subtypes including:

  • Landscape
  • Structure
  • Dimension

Items have the following effect terms:

  • Beneficial: Help
  • Malicious: Hinderance
  • Neutral: Special (generally a Special Location will be both a Help & Hinder depending on specific situations)

Challenge

Challenges are a subtype of Thing. Challenges are the locus of conflict in the game. Players play challenges to initiate contest between the players. There can be multiple challenges in play at one time, each in a different state of resolution. Challenges have further subtypes of:

  • Test (a player would normally play these on himself, because successfully completing the Test will gain him additional cards)
  • Trial (a player would normally play these on his opponent, because it delays the other player and could cause him to lose cards)
  • Quest(this is a major challenge to the player. Winning the game requires successfully completing an agreed upon number of Quests)

Events

Events are a subtype of Action. Each Event specifies the conditions required for it to be played and effects it has on the game. Events may effect any other type of card or may trigger other events.

Events are used to cause interaction between the players and cards.

Rules

During the Play stage, the following rules apply to the various Card Types, unless otherwise noted on the card:

  • Only one Hero card per player can be in play at a time.
  • Only one copy of each Being card per player can be in play at once.
  • Item cards can only be played onto Hero or Being cards.
  • Quality cards can only by played onto cards as indicated.
  • Hero, Being:Ally, and Item cards are played into the Home Area directly in front of the player.
  • Challenge cards are played into the Common Area between the two players.
  • Only one Location card per Challenge can be in play at once. Playing a new Location card causes the old Location card to be discarded.
  • Challenges are played such that they appear "top up" for the player to which the Challenge is made.

(Possible) Cards to Make

  • Greek Mythology
  • Norse Mythology
  • Lord of the Rings
  • Star Wars
  • Matrix
  • Gladiator

Card List

Samples

Pegasus
Being : Creature : Ally
Pegasus logo.gif

Spirit: 6
Mind: 4
Heart: 8
Will: 5
Skill: 3
Power: 6


If a Location is in play, its Power is reduced to zero.
The winged horse from Greek mythology carries the hero to his task.
Dave the Brave
Being : Human : Hero
Spirit: 2
Mind: 3
Heart: 2
Will: 3
Skill: 2
Power: 4

This card represents a typical Hero. One attribute with a value of 4, two with a value of 3, and the rest with a value of 2.
Just your typical hero
Darth Vader
Being : Human : Enemy
Vaderb.jpg

Spirit: 5
Mind: 7
Heart: 8
Will: 9
Skill: 7
Power: 8


Designate an opponent's Ally to be considered an Enemy for this Challenge.
If you only knew the power of the Dark Side...
The Tale is Told
Event : Call to Adventure
Your Hero must accept a Challenge if one is in play. If not, search the Discard pile for a Challenge and put it in play. Search the Draw pile if none is found in the Discard pile.
Theseus learns the tale of the beast and the terrible sacrifice to appease it...
Tragic Flaw Revealed
Event : Mandatory : Lasting
AchillesH.gif
Search your Draw Pile for a Quality with a negative effect. Play this onto your Hero.
Thetis dipped the infant Achilles in the river Styx, holding onto him by his heel...
The Colosseum
Location : Structure : Hinder
Colosseum.jpg
Spirit: 0
Mind: 0
Heart: 5
Will: 0
Skill: 0
Power: 0

Many a brave gladiator has taken his final breath here, even as its massiveness has taken his breath away
Mt. Olympus
Location : Structure : Help/Hinder
Summit.JPG

Spirit: 6
Mind: 0
Heart: 7
Will: 0
Skill: 0
Power: 0


If you have Greek Allies in play, this card is a Help, otherwise a Hinder.
Goblin
Being : Creature : Enemy
Spirit: 2
Mind: 1
Heart: 4
Will: 3
Skill: 4
Power: 3

More than one Goblin can be in play at one time.
Goblins can overwhelm in large groups.
Stormbringer
Item: Weapon : Help
Swrd.jpg
Spirit: 0
Mind: 0
Heart: 0
Will: 0
Skill: 3
Power: 3

A legendary blade that once belonged to a wizard, Stormbringer is both deadly and easy to use.
Justice
Aspect : Quality : Virtue
Scales.jpg

Spirit: 0
Mind: 2
Heart: 0
Will: 5
Skill: 0
Power: 0




Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another ~ Zech 7:9 NKJV
Cards.gif10
Test
Event : test
Cards.gif
Your Hero must accept a Challenge if one is in play. If not, search the Discard pile for a Challenge and put it in play. Search the Draw pile if none is found in the Discard pile.
Theseus learns the tale of the beast and the terrible sacrifice to appease it...