Talk:Mario RPG CCG set

General Discussion

So the idea with this deck is to put in all the detail left out of the Mario Bros. deck and to put it in a format more capable of dealing with it. A CCG should have much more card interaction than a normal deck though, so many of the cards will need major changes. Also, the victory condition is going to need some discussion. To keep the two decks separate, I think the victory condition should be different between the two. Since the other deck came first, I think it'd be best to decide on it's victory condition first, then work out a different one for this deck. MagiMaster 19:38, 23 April 2007 (BST)

Oh yeah. Since a CCG typically has much more complex rules and card interactions, the card text should be kept... well, I can't think of the right word, but you get the idea. (Right?) MagiMaster 19:53, 23 April 2007 (BST)

Deeper? More... Detailed? Whatever. Also, I think your old idea of having the X cards you have to have out to win. Maybe they would come after you beat a boss or something, and then you'd have to beat the most bosses to win, and then when they're all gone, either the person with the most Plot Items wins, or you'd have to defeat other people bosses, or a combination. Finally, would enemies be able to attack enemies, and Vice Versa with heroes? --BM 23:16, 23 April 2007 (BST)

I don't know yet, but don't make too many cards before we work out the game system. For example, Super Hammer might not make sense as written if there is no Jump Check (which I figure there won't be).

I fixed Super Hammer and added a few new cards. Also, I think the Heroes should be called Partners, like all cards from Thoreau to Lakilester. And, on the subject of damage, I would suggest that damage is cumulative because

• A That's how some CCGs, not to mention all RPGs work.
• B I've never played M:TG, and wouldn't know if that system would work out all too well.

Finally, you never answered my question on enemies being able to attack enemies and the like. --BM 02:34, 24 April 2007 (BST)

I don't mind cumulative damage, but just to point out, M:TG (aka Magic: the Gathering) is the largest, longest running CCG ever. If there's a lesson to be learned about CCGs, they've already learned it (well, nearly so). As far as Heroes goes, I meant for cards like Mario, Peach and Goombella to be heroes. As for enemy vs. enemy, I don't know yet. It depends on other descisions. Designing a game is a lot of work and shouldn't be rushed. MagiMaster 02:43, 24 April 2007 (BST)

Okay, so Heroes means Heroes and Partners. As in all Playable characters. I think you've made it pretty clear, thanks. Oh, and congrats on the highlighted status. It's probably because of the popularity for Mario games and the fact that CCG's usually get more attention etc. --BM 15:28, 24 April 2007 (BST)

I don't feel right going back and making Pixls Heroes, should I just make them regular Things? That's what I'll go do now. --BM 15:43, 24 April 2007 (BST)

Why did you make Boo's Sheet Equipment but keep Stopwatch an Action. They are, after all, both items. Shouldn't you put Boo's Sheet back? --BM 23:22, 26 April 2007 (BST)

Boo's Sheet affects one Hero card and has a lasting effect, so it might as well be played onto that Hero. That fulfills the definition of Equipment (except it might or might not say Hero only). On the other hand, Stopwatch affects all of the opponent's Enemies and only lasts one turn, so it's an Action. When you say something is Thing or Action, it has nothing to do with what it is in the original game. It only depends on how it's used in this game. MagiMaster 05:20, 27 April 2007 (BST)

HP and DEF Mechanics

Thinking about it, I think I'd prefer some new HP/DEF mechanic. Both of those have been done. Does anyone have any ideas what else we could do? (I'm imagining something involving dice, but that may be too slow to be playable. The key to a system like this is how quickly it can be played.) MagiMaster 00:18, 25 April 2007 (BST)

I honestly like this system best, but if I really thought about it, I would have 'Jumps' system. This (not as good as the current) system would have each card having a number of Jumps before death and maybe we would have specific things happening after 'n' Jumps, like a Koopa going into a continuous damage spree unless sufficiently damaged. Like I said, HP + DEF works out much better than anything I could come up with, but I attempted to help, and things happened. --BM 04:57, 26 April 2007 (BST)

Resources

I think that having some form of resource management can give a CCG much more depth without necessarily making it too complex. I know of several CCGs that do this (and Wikipedia agrees with me, for the most part). The question is, what's a good resource for a Mario CCG? Also, I found this interesting page on CCG design. MagiMaster 19:45, 25 April 2007 (BST)

Colors

I colored all of the (new) cards according to their types, but I'm not sure I got it quite right. For one thing, the gold/yellow for the Heroes makes the title a little hard to read. Anyway, just for reference, here's the types and colors.

880000

Action

880066

Response

000088

Thing

000000

Enemy

FFD700

Hero

006688

Equipment

008800

Location

I say, make the Heroes FF0000, darken the Equipment, and make response a little bluer. That makes.

FF0000

Hero

004466

Equipment

662244

Response

--BM 16:08, 28 April 2007 (BST)

Victory Condition

Right now, this is just a list of possible Victory Conditions. Once the list is made, we can narrow it down and vote for a final decision.

• Collect plot coupons
• Defeat the other players
  • Beat up the players
  • Beat up the enemies controlled by the other players
• Victory cards
  • Each hero has a victory point, need several to win
  • Each hero has a victory condition, need one to win
  • Non-hero victory points
  • Non-hero goal cards
  • Plot coupon cards
  • Single victory card

Possible Abbreviations

Since this deck has the potential for passing 100 cards, it'd be best to abbreviate common mechanics. It looks like the following three will certainly be needed.

• HP - This hasn't been defined yet
• DEF - This hasn't been defined yet
• ATK - Action: Deal target n damage.

Most likely, the first two will be abbreviated further as HP/DEF in the corner value. MagiMaster 02:39, 24 April 2007 (BST)

That's exactly what I was doing in my cards. Well, I named the ATK's, so it would be more like Action: Jump: Deal target n damage. Also wiki's use 3 apostrophes for bold and 2 for Italics --BM 02:46, 24 April 2007 (BST)

Ack... Yeah, I know that. I just keep forgetting. Anyway, when I say ATK as an abbreviation, what I meant was:

2/0

Goomba

Enemy

ATK: 1

---

This is still an example.

IMO, attacks don't need to be named. It's flavor text, but it's in the middle of the card and I find it a bit distracting. The Pokemon CCG does it though, so it's not without precedent. MagiMaster 02:55, 24 April 2007 (BST)

RPG's and CCG's alike always have a few attacks that do more then just -1 on someone. I, for one, like those attacks, and am excited to use them. And the naming of the attacks is for people to go "Hey, I remember the Goombella's Headbonk, I should use it. It'll be much better then her stupid Tattle." and it allows people to "Goombella HEADBONK ATTACK!!!!" But, I see why you'd want to remove it, and so, if you tell me to, I will. --BM 15:34, 24 April 2007 (BST)

Well, it'd be something like this:

• ATK: 1
• ATK: 3
• ATK: 1, target's controller must discard a card at random.

Things like Tattle wouldn't be attacks. They'd just be actions. As for the naming, let's see if anyone else has anything to say about it. MagiMaster 17:49, 24 April 2007 (BST)

I'll keep the naming until we get more people. Also, should I advertise this on my website? It's not all that popular, but my friends would see it. Also, I don't like using ATK on the card as something other points. I'd prefer Attack: Example: 2, enemy is now hurt. --BM 01:06, 25 April 2007 (BST)

Advertise all you want. It's your site. Anyway, 'Attack: 2' or maybe 'Attack: Headbonk - 1' is fine, but try not to put too much flavor text in the middle of the card. It just makes things confusing. If there's flavor text mixed in with the normal text, it might get hard to tell what is a game mechanic and what isn't. For example, you might have an attack that mentions poison in the flavor text but doesn't actually inflict the poisoned condition on the victim (assuming such a condition existed). One rule of fiction is 'let the reader's/player's imagination work for you,' so you don't have to spell out everything. MagiMaster 01:18, 25 April 2007 (BST)

I simplified all my cards. They now mostly say "Action: Headbonk: 1 Damage." I decided against advertising because I don't trust most of the people to do really read the rules or actually go on at all. --BM 05:11, 26 April 2007 (BST)

A note on conditions like flying. There are two types of conditions, active and passive. Active conditions are things like Poisoned. These are typically abbreviations for text like 'Remove one Health Counter from this card at the beginning of each round.' Passive conditions are things like Flying. By themselves, they don't actually do anything, but other cards can reference them. This could be considered an abbreviation for something like 'This card counts as Flying.' Any conditions of either type that exist in the game need to be defined somewhere for simplicity's sake. MagiMaster 05:46, 27 April 2007 (BST)

The "Action:" wording was itself an arbitrary design decision, back in the day - I'd be tempted to just have the mechanics written as "Headbonk: 1 damage", and to say that "bold verb followed by colon" always means "instead of playing an action, you may do this". --Kevan 16:19, 28 April 2007 (BST)

CCG Decks

While we're building this, we should be thinking about the decks that will be made from it. For example, how big should those decks be? A common number for Dvorak CCG decks seems to be 40, which is reasonable. M:TG uses 60, but they have tens of thousands of cards to choose from. Any other opinions on this?

Brief Thoughts About CCG Design

These are just my thoughts. If you disagree with them, feel free to change/delete/expand them.

• No two cards should be exactly alike
• Cards shouldn't refer to specific other cards
• Cards should interact with other cards
• There should be at least three cards for every game mechanic (in various combinations)
• The rules can be as complex as they need to be as long as the game can proceed at a reasonable pace
• The lower limit on deck size and upper limit on number of copies in a deck are important
• Some form of resource management is probably needed

I'd say about 1/2 of the entire set should be used for a deck, possibly lowered down. Also, I think we shouldn't have too many copies of a card, except for Response cards, in which the limit should be endless. What do you mean by resouce management? I don't quite get it. --BM 00:33, 27 April 2007 (BST)

Half the set will be way too big for the minimum deck size. I'd say 40 cards unless the set gets to maybe 150-200, then I'd say about 50. By resource management, I mean there should be some resource (other than health) that must be managed to be successful. In many fantasy games, this would be mana. In some games, it'd be money. Some games abstract this out and have military/scientific/etc. resources. None of these are a particularly good fit for a Mario game though. Generally speaking, there are various things that allow the players to gain more resources every turn, which they then spend to bring out cards or use the more powerful card abilities. I think having resources is important because it's both a strong balancing factor and a strong source of card interactions. MagiMaster 05:20, 27 April 2007 (BST)

Well. in Paper Mario, that's FP, but I don't think that's very good because A) We go by the games and every attack but 2 use up FP, but use so little it's a laugh, B) We change it and the few attacks that do take up FP just aren't used, or, C) We change it, and the immense amount of attacks and their cost makes the game rather unfun. Thanks for the explanation, when you said "other then HP" it clicked together. Maybe *thinks...* we could have FP, but, their would be few attacks, but high cost. Then, we would have reaction cards filling it. Or, we would have Audience Members, the more reactions/high level attacks you pull off, the more people you get. And the Audience could be used to fill up your HP, (like Hooktail, enemies would do it at the cost of members) or power up stronger attacks (Heroes, only with a certain number, though) and you could use them to fire tomatoes and such at the other player. And about the deck size, it's not getting any bigger. I meant 50% in the case of we're the only people working on it and it doesn't get very big. If we do get to, say 100, wouldn't 50 be a logical choice? Enough to build a deck that has a very specific strategy, but not so much that the only ones you're leaving out are the Goomba and the Mistakes. But, if we do get to, 150/200 we definitely want less than 50%. It really depends on how many people see the deck on highlighted projects, click to see why it's so popular, and start adding cards. --BM 16:02, 28 April 2007 (BST)

I meant MAX: 50 MIN: Probably 40. --BM 16:14, 28 April 2007 (BST)