View source for Talk:Mario Bros. deck

This reminds me of the Platform Game deck (which I should upload since nobody else will) [[User:Zaratustra|Zaratustra]] 16:38, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
:That doesn't really surprise me since Mario is pretty much the original platformer.  Just about anything related to a platformer would also relate to Mario. [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 17:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

CashCrazed, thanks for sorting the cards.  I was planning on doing that myself later.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 15:41, 26 March 2007 (BST)

== Water Levels ==

I have Soda Lake as an underwater location for the moment, but for the flying fish (etc.) I need an overwater level too.  Does anyone know how these should be dealt with?  Should Soda Lake be under or overwater?  Either way, what should the other be? [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 02:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Cheese Bridge. [[User:Zaratustra|Zaratustra]] 04:40, 26 March 2007 (BST)

:That sounds good.  I'll make that the over water level for now, and leave Soda Lake the under water level. [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 15:25, 26 March 2007 (BST)

== Victory Condition ==

So, the only way to win is to play Princess Rescue when Bowser's Castle is in play? [[User:Zaratustra|Zaratustra]] 04:40, 26 March 2007 (BST)

:Yeah, on the last Level.  I added a question under 'other thoughts' about whether Levels should be for the whole game or each player. [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 15:25, 26 March 2007 (BST)

::I'm pretty sure neither player will play Bowser's Castle on the last level if they don't have Princess Rescue to play immediately after. [[User:Zaratustra|Zaratustra]] 19:05, 26 March 2007 (BST)

:::Hmm... that's a good point and a very good argument for using personal Levels.  A player might still play Bowser's Castle if they're on the last level, but their opponents aren't.  Do you have any suggestions on this though? [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 19:35, 26 March 2007 (BST)

=== Global or Personal Levels? ===

Having everyone use their own levels but share the same locations doesn't really make sense. Then again, if everyone is on the same level, nothing really matters at all until the last level where winning becomes possible. You could play 50 levels and there wouldn't be any tension in the game until the 49th at best. [[User:CashCrazed|CashCrazed]] 01:41, 27 March 2007 (BST)

:Yeah but despite it not making sense, I think it's the most playable.  It will also slow the game down, since three Levels for three players would be about the same as seven global Levels.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 04:47, 27 March 2007 (BST)

=== Shine Sprites, Crystal Stars, etc. ===

I was just thinking, we could possibly make the victory condition more logical by saying you have to collect some number of random plot coupons.  Most of the newer Mario games do this (Shine Sprites, Crystal Stars, etc.).  The only problem is that this could have a major effect on a good number of cards.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 06:40, 21 April 2007 (BST)

I think the Victory Conditions should have '''One card to ''rule'' them all.''' For example, my Star Spitits could have the Star Beam as their ''Lord of the Cards.'' 
<br clear=all/>
{{Card
|title=Star Beam
|text=If you have Eldstar, Mamar, Klevar, Kalmar, Skolar, Muskular and Misstar either in your hand or in play, you win. 
|type=Thing
|bgcolor=009
|minicard=true
}}
<br clear=all/>
--[[User:BM|BM]] 15:23, 21 April 2007 (BST)


Now that I think of it, there is another set that would work. The Pure Hearts and the person who helped save the world in Super Paper Mario. If you've played it, you'll know. Otherwise, go get it. --[[User:BM|BM]] 15:27, 21 April 2007 (BST)

:I certainly intend to get it, once I get a Wii.  Anyway, I was just talking generically.  I figure we could make up something new rather than copy a specific existing game.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 20:58, 21 April 2007 (BST)

Your no fun! =*( But your the boss, what you say goes. Still, we have these Star Spirit cards lying around, and an idea. It could work. When you get a Wii, post your Friend code on my Talk Page, we can keep in touch. And while your here, I might as well say that this deck doesn't get much traffic. Maybe you should advertise it on your other decks or something. --[[User:BM|BM]] 23:11, 21 April 2007 (BST)

:Well, I think the plot coupons shouldn't be actual cards.  They should probably just be an abstraction like Levels.  In fact, they would probably simply replace Levels.  The thing is, making that replacement would require changing cards like Rescue the Princess and You Forgot the Princess.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 05:12, 22 April 2007 (BST)

:Oh yeah.  I can't advertise for a deck on another deck because that's not how a wiki works.  I have this listed as one of my decks on my user page, but that's really all I can do as far as that goes.  Feel free to try organizing a playtest on the [[Upcoming games]] page though.  I might do that myself sometime.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 05:17, 22 April 2007 (BST)

Okay, I'm just saying that '''maybe''' on your other decks, you could add something like "Check out my other decks on my User Page." or something. Not that it matters, we can keep working on it. Another way we could make a winning condition is by the inclusion of Bosses. For example, Bowser.

<br clear=all/>
{{Card
|title=Bowser
|text=This card belongs to no-one. This card has 4 counters. Every turn, Bowser will destroy a card of someone with less then 3 Jump Check. If a player has more then 4 Jump Check, they may use an Action to remove a counter. If this card has no more counters it is remove and the last person to damage it gets a token.
|type=Boss
|minicard=
}}
<br clear=all/>

Who ever has X number of Boss Tokens wins. It could work. And why would we have to remove the Levels. All Mario games have different ways to win, why not his deck? If I just broke the "not exactly like the games" rule, ignore me. 
P.S. I just added a Game Appointment, hope you can make it. --[[User:BM|BM]] 21:52, 22 April 2007 (BST)

:As far as I remember, none of the Mario games had multiple ways to win, just multiple ways of getting to the last boss.  The problem with the boss token is that if the boss has 2HP, no one will attack it, because it's almost garaunteed that someone else will kill it.  I think the current setup has a similar problem with playing Bowser's Castle on the last Level.  If the goal was to gather  plot coupons, I think we could dodge most of the problem.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 22:27, 22 April 2007 (BST)

:I just checked the time on the game.  I can't make it then.  Maybe next time.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 22:32, 22 April 2007 (BST)

What Time Zone are you? I could set something else up, but I want to be sure. --[[User:BM|BM]] 00:23, 23 April 2007 (BST)

:Central.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 02:46, 23 April 2007 (BST)

I'm 2 hours ahead. When will you be free? --[[User:BM|BM]] 04:05, 23 April 2007 (BST)

Your time, I mean. --[[User:BM|BM]] 04:05, 23 April 2007 (BST)

:I suppose the best times for me would be Monday around 8:00pm or Tuesday around 10:00pm (both Central), or sometime on the weekend.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 18:01, 23 April 2007 (BST)

Back to the discussion of the victory condition, what would be a good name for the plot coupons?  Previous games have used Shine Sprites, Crystal Stars, Crystal Hearts and others that I can't remember the name of.  It feels to me like it should be something a little bit silly, but I can't think of much.  (Maybe Golden Tickets or something.)  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 18:01, 24 April 2007 (BST)

Not Crystal Hearts, ''Pure'' Hearts, but that's more RPG's. Now that we have RPG's separate we should have bosses or something like that. Maybe we should have it so you have to destroy a number of enemies to win. Or we would have a ton of stars and when the game ends (now that I think of it, we have no game ending thing either) whoever has the most wins. --[[User:BM|BM]] 23:18, 24 April 2007 (BST)

:Well, from a game play point of view, plot coupons would be a good thing IMO.  I don't think the deck is currently set up correctly to deal with beating up bosses as a victory condition.  Just beating up random enemies has never been the goal of any Mario game, so I don't think that'd work very well.  (Besides, then people would be reluctant to play enemies.)  The stars are basically what I'm talking about when I say plot coupon.  It's just some arbitrary collectible.  The end condition would be 'someone gets ''x'' stars/coupons/whatever.'  (It doesn't really matter what they're called, as long as we're consistent.)  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 00:03, 25 April 2007 (BST)

:Go for a whole whack of stars. Also, I think either the most stars wins or, using an idea from a [[Might of the Boodles deck]], you'd have to collect a specific one. (Though that one might not be as good.) --[[User:BM|BM]] 00:57, 25 April 2007 (BST)

::I don't like the idea of 'most coupons wins' since that means there has to be a separate end condition.  Also, I don't want to copy the Might of the Boodles, so having a random specific coupon is no good either (plus it's not really in the spirit of a Mario game).  If we go with plot coupons (call them stars or whatever you want for now), I think the best goal would be 'first to collect 10 (or whatever) wins.'  Besides those three though, what other options are there?  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 01:30, 25 April 2007 (BST)

::Well, actually, we could combine the Levels and the coupons like so: the game ends after the last level; the player with the most coupons wins.  I still don't really like that as much as just 'first to 10 wins' though, but it's a thought.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 01:32, 25 April 2007 (BST)

::If we wanted to be like Mario 64, then a combo would work. If we wanted to be more like the RPG's, we'd use the first to 10 rule. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. --[[User:BM|BM]] 01:44, 25 April 2007 (BST)

==Scope? - Resolved==
Which Mario games does this deck cover?  It seems to draw most of its cards from Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario World, with a few from other oldskool Mario games.  Which, if any, newer games should be allowed?  Super Mario 64("Lost Cap")? New Super Mario Bros? ("Blue Shell")  Paper Mario? ("Super Hammer") What about older games, such as Donkey Kong?

:So far I've been using Mario 3, Super Mario World and Paper Mario: TTYD for most of the cards I've been making.  Basically though, those are just the ones I'm most familiar with.  The only restriction I've had in mind was that all the action should take place in the Mushroom Kingdom (as opposed to Isle Delfino or Rogueport).  If yall want though, we could use those for locations too.  (Actually though, I think Donkey Kong may be a bit off too since Mario wasn't the hero in that one.)  Also, the super hammer and the special hats (from SM64) might make good cards.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 16:29, 26 March 2007 (BST)

:Well, I was just reading on the Mario Wiki, and it seems like Super Mario World has the best place names.  Mario 3 doesn't name any of its levels (although I think fans named the desert Koopahari Desert [from the Wikipedia entry]).  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 18:00, 26 March 2007 (BST)

::Grass Land, Desert Hill, Ocean Side, Big Island, The Sky, Iced Land, Pipe Maze and Castle of Koopa. [[User:Zaratustra|Zaratustra]] 19:03, 26 March 2007 (BST)

Should we include Super Mario 2 or not?  It supposedly takes place in a dream world.  If we included it, there could be cards like Birdo, Vegetable, Phanto, etc. but it doesn't fit all that well with the rest of the series.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 19:25, 28 March 2007 (BST)

Actually, I vote that we limit ourselves to [http://www.mariowiki.com/Mushroom_Planet Mushroom Planet] at least.  That would include Rogueport and Isle Delfino though, so we should figure out what part of Mushroom Planet (if not the whole thing) to cover. [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 19:59, 28 March 2007 (BST)

Well, you made the deck, so it's your call. If I had the choice, I would just make it all the mainstream games (No spin-offs) just because the "Mario Bros." games mean, to me, all the adventure games, none of the spin-offs. Well, that's my two cents, do with it what you want. [[User:BM|BM]] 9:16, 15 April 2007 (PST)

:Maybe we should have a list of which games the current cards came from.  It'd be a big list though and I don't have time to work on it at the moment.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 20:56, 15 April 2007 (BST)

Actually it wasn't very big at all. Although, I really only looked at the name unless I really wasn't sure. Super Mario Bros, Super Mario World, Super Mario Bros. 3, Mario Party, Super Mario 64, Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door, New Super Mario Bros. I probably messed up on some of the cards. If someone could run through the list one more time, that would really help. [[User:BM|BM]] 8:01, 16 April 2007 (PST)

I don't like the idea of having it limited to the Mushroom Kingdom. I think that every Platformer / RPG Mario game should be included. And that's not just because I want to make a whack of Pixl cards (hint hint.) I could go and make them right now, I have the ideas for a whole bunch of non-''Mushroom World'' cards, but I don't want to make them, only to have them shot down for being out of the "Scope." --[[User:BM|BM]] 05:47, 21 April 2007 (BST)

:Well, I'm fine with it I suppose.  The only game that I can think of off hand that's not on Mushroom Planet is Super Paper Mario.  (Mario Galaxy isn't out yet.)  Even the Wario games take place on Mushroom Planet.  I suppose it wouldn't make much difference then if it was everything vs Mushroom Planet.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 06:22, 21 April 2007 (BST)

Not so fast MagiMaster, not all the Mario Games. Let's keep the spin-offs away, with a stick. Not that I have anything '''wrong''' with the spin-offs, I just don't think they're true ''Mario Bros.'' --[[User:BM|BM]] 15:13, 21 April 2007 (BST)

I just mentioned Wario as existing on the same planet.  I didn't mean we should add Wario stuff (except possibly as a small cameo).  The same goes for Donkey Kong.  We could use the locations from those games though.

I wasn't specifically targeting Wario. Infact, I completely forgot about him when I said that. It was in response to your "All Mario games" comment. I was talking about, like, Mario Tennis or something. --[[User:BM|BM]] 23:14, 21 April 2007 (BST)

:Actually, I forgot about the Mario sports games.  Alright.  So I guess the scope would be the Platformers and RPGs but some of the locations and characters from the other games might make brief appearances.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 05:12, 22 April 2007 (BST)

Works for me. Is this resolved now? --[[User:BM|BM]] 21:54, 22 April 2007 (BST)

:Sure.  I'll mark it.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 22:27, 22 April 2007 (BST)

== Specific Cards ==

=== Cards by Bucky ===
==== Starman ====

I think Starman should also incorporate the effect of the Tanuki Suit (can't be affected by enemies).  Also, how long should Starman's effect last (probably either 1 turn or 3)? [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 17:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Mario doesn't just not get effected by enemies with it, he plows through them at high-speed, killing them on impact. Maybe you should add something like "'''Action:''' Every two turns you may destroy 3 enemies." or something. That way, it would be powerful, but not god-modding powerful. [[User:BM|BM]] 9:20, 15 April 2007 (PST)

:I changed it's type to Thing and added the effect of Tanooki Suit.  I also added a counter so that it'll only stay in play for 3 turns.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 18:02, 20 April 2007 (BST)

==== Keyhole ====

Should Keyhole destroy the stack of Location cards when advancing?  All other methods of advancing do.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 16:11, 26 March 2007 (BST)

:I added the 'destroy the location stack' effect.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 18:02, 20 April 2007 (BST)

==== Thwomp - Resolved ====

I checked the history and saw that you made Thwomp but left my name as the creator.  I clarified the text a little (Jump Die is the number on the die before any modifiers), changed the color to Thing-blue (000033 looks too much like black, 000044 is probably closer to half-way visually) and put your name on it.  (I didn't remember that I didn't make it until I took a close look :P) [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 04:59, 27 March 2007 (BST)

==== Minus World ====

I reworded the card a little.  It should have the same effect most of the time, except when Warp Whistle is played.  Feel free to change it back if you don't like the new wording.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 18:02, 20 April 2007 (BST)

=== Cards by MagiMaster ===

==== Star Road ====

I don't really like how the math works out for Star Road at the moment, but I can't think of a better way to word it either.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 06:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

==== Bill Blaster - Resolved ====

If you play Bullet Bill and sacrifice it to Bill Blaster on the same turn, you can force someone to discard a card every round without much chance of anyone stopping you.  Is this alright, or do I need to change something to make it easier to stop (or something)?  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 17:34, 26 March 2007 (BST)

You should probably make it so that you have to wait a turn (to symbolize the Blaster not having rapid-fire) and change the words so it says "if the card you sacrifice has Bill in the name and is not this card," incase someone makes another Bullet Bill spinoff enemy. By someone I mean me, but I'll wait until you report back. [[User:BM|BM]] 15:17, 26 March 2007 (PST)

:I changed this.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 17:31, 27 March 2007 (BST)

==== Banzai Bill - Resolved ====
You got your idea from my card, methinks. Not that I mind. For the discard thing, why would someone discard their full hand when they can just discard 3 cards. Unless, you mean if their hands are less than 3 cards. Otherwise the card would have to say "Discard 3 cards to save one thing, or if more than 3 cards are in your hand, discard your entire hand to save both things.  [[User:BM|BM]] 15:12, 26 March 2007 (PST)

:It's for when there are less than 3 cards in their hand. [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 17:31, 27 March 2007 (BST)

==== Thwomp - Resolved ====
Thwomp is labeled as an Action card, but is coloured as an enemy card, is next to the enemies, and is an enemy in the games. Which is it? [[User:BM|BM]] 16:10, 26 March 2007 (PST)

:Bucky actually made Thwomp, but left the wrong name on it.  I fixed it up before I realized it was his.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 17:31, 27 March 2007 (BST)

==== Koopahari Desert ====
I want one location that doesn't really have anything special about it, but should it be this one?  I can't really think of anything for this to do (even though it might have more 'Play only here' cards).  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 19:25, 28 March 2007 (BST)

:I think Peaches Castle would be the best subtle location because it's the HUB in SM64. It's purpose is for people to go other places with it. Maybe just have it say "This card cannot be your last level." Short, sweet and to the point. --[[User:BM|BM]] 01:54, 25 April 2007 (BST)

::Peach's Castle works, but then what should Koopahari Desert do?  There's already one or two cards that refer to it, so it can't simply be deleted (or renamed).  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 02:55, 25 April 2007 (BST)

==== Super Hammer - Resolved ====
This card seems sort of ambiguous. Does it only combine with other cards to boost the Jump Check for another destruction? If so, it'll be really hard to play, since you have to perform two Actions on the same turn for this to work. I took it to mean "Destroy target thing if your Jump Check is 2 or higher" when I played, but I just didn't know what to go with. [[User:CashCrazed|CashCrazed]] 02:39, 2 April 2007 (BST)

:I clarified the text some.  See if that helps. [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 07:38, 2 April 2007 (BST)

==== Yoshi Egg and Baby Yoshi ====
I can't seem to get the wording on Yoshi Egg and Baby Yoshi right.  I want it so that Baby Yoshi and Yoshi can only be played permanently by using the previous card, but requiring them to all be drawn is a little unrealistic.  Does anyone see a better way to write that? [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 19:34, 9 April 2007 (BST)

:Here's a suggestion for Baby Yoshi, which you can adapt to the other two.  It's clearer, but ends up being slightly longer.[[User:Jtwe|Jtwe]] 20:38, 18 April 2007 (BST)
When this card comes into play, destroy a Yoshi Egg you control or destroy this card. Reduce your Jump Check by 1.<br/>'''Action:''' Destroy target enemy and add a counter to this card.<br/>'''Action:''' If this card has at least 3 counters, you may search the deck for a Yoshi card, put it in your hand, and reshuffle. Then, you may play Yoshi.

::I don't know... I'll leave it alone for now.  If anyone else comments, I'll probably change it though.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 18:02, 20 April 2007 (BST)

==== Peach's Castle ====
I added Peach's Castle as a Location that doesn't do much.  Right now, it just says that you can't advance while there.  However, if we get away from Levels, this will likely just become a blank Location.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 18:37, 25 April 2007 (BST)

=== Cards by BM ===

==== Bullet Bill - Resolved ====
I'm not sure about having a player roll a Jump Check in the middle of someone else's turn.  I made the Jump Check at the beginning of the turn to keep the amount of rolling down.  Does anyone else have an opinion on this?  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 23:41, 25 March 2007 (BST)

I fixed it so it's the last Jump-Check. I really don't know what sounds good what shouldn't be done etc. regarding card games as I haven't played one in a while. Sorry about that. I don't usually make big contributions to things, so I'm glad you helped clarify on that. I changed it already, tell me if it needs more fine-tuning.  [[User:BM|BM]] 19:47, 25 March 2007 (PST)

:Do you choose what they lose, or do they?  I'll rewrite the card for now, but change it if you don't think I got it right. [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 15:25, 26 March 2007 (BST)

==== Spade Game - Resolved ====
So Spade Game lets you look at the cards from the opponents hand as well?  'Look at three of the opponents cards and maybe draw three cards' seems a little powerful.  Maybe instead you could have 'Draw three cards.  If they are all the same type, keep them, otherwise discard them.'  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 23:41, 25 March 2007 (BST)

Your idea sounds a bit better, but they should shuffle the deck after so people don't know what card the next 3 people are going to have. By The Way, I'm totally fine with you editing my cards, as long as you don't totally change what I'm doing with the card. Sorry about that. I don't usually make big contributions to things, so I'm glad you helped clarify on that. I changed it already, tell me if it needs more fine-tuning.  [[User:BM|BM]] 19:52, 25 March 2007 (PST)

:I'll rewrite that card to be a bit clearer.  Let me know if I didn't get it right. [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 15:25, 26 March 2007 (BST)

==== Warp Whistle ====
I like the idea, but I think the text needs some clarification.  I don't know how what's written should be played out.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 23:43, 25 March 2007 (BST)

Sorry about that. I don't usually make big contributions to things, so I'm glad you helped clarify on that. I changed it already, tell me if it needs more fine-tuning.  [[User:BM|BM]] 19:43, 25 March 2007 (PST)

:The Location cards in the stack are the ones that have already been played.  The other Location cards are in the draw pile.  Do you mean 'Take the top three cards in the Location stack, discard two and put one back in play' or 'Draw three Location cards, discard two and put one into play'? [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 15:25, 26 March 2007 (BST)

I meant 3 location cards from the stack. I probably wasn't reading the rules clear enough, sorry. [[User:BM|BM]] 7:41, 26 March 2007 (PST)

:Alright.  Just one more question.  Why lay the stack out face-down?  You can see all the cards in the stack at any time.  (It's not like the draw pile.)  If you follow the card text exactly, then what happens to all the other cards?  Your original text read more like 'Destroy two of the top three Locations'.  Sorry for all the questions, but it's hard to understand some stuff like this when it's just text. [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 16:06, 26 March 2007 (BST)

Forget the Face-down part, I'll change it. [[User:BM|BM]] 15:03, 26 March 2007 (PST)

:Alright, but what happens to the rest of the cards?  Do they just go back under the new Location? [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 00:24, 27 March 2007 (BST)

If you mean the other cards from the Location Pile, they stay unharmed. If you mean the 2 losing candidates, the card says they are discarded. [[User:BM|BM]] 16:48, 26 March 2007 (PST)

:Ok, I see what it does now.  It's about the same as saying 'Destroy any two Locations in the stack and move any other to the top,' right?  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 04:47, 27 March 2007 (BST)

Yeah, pretty much. [[User:BM|BM]] 10:28, 14 April 2007 (PST)

:Is there any particular reason for destroying two things in the Location stack?  (Was there something you had in mind for that effect?)  If not, would you mind if I rewrote Warp Whistle to just move a card to the top of the Location stack?  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 19:16, 18 April 2007 (BST)

::I changed the text, but kept the 'destroy two Locations'.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 18:02, 20 April 2007 (BST)

::I did that, because some of the time, it just boosts you up to the next set of levels, thus ''destroying'' (see what I did there?) the chance to get back to the other places. --[[User:BM|BM]] 15:05, 21 April 2007 (BST)

:::Well, the cards don't have to be an exact copy of the item from the game.  Just the general idea is good enough.  The important bit is playability.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 20:58, 21 April 2007 (BST)

Okay, thanks for clarification. I was over-doing the ''exactly like the games'' bit. Is this clarified yet? --[[User:BM|BM]] 23:17, 21 April 2007 (BST)

Well, as far as I can tell, the text is pretty clear.  I don't know whether or not the 'destroy 2 locations' will really make much difference in the end, but we can let playtesting sort that out.  I suppose that if it makes no real difference, it could be removed for clarity/brevity, but it's fine for now.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 05:17, 22 April 2007 (BST)

==== Bowser's Overkill - Resolved ====
What happens if you have exactly 5 enemies? [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 15:39, 26 March 2007 (BST)
I'll go fix to 5 and over enemies. It was late, I missed some things. [[User:BM|BM]] 7:43, 26 March 2007 (PST)

==== Buzzy Beetle - Resolved ====
I had already made a Buzzy Beetle card.  Should we combine them, or do you think one works better?  (BTW, you should at least add Blue Shell to the list of possible cards.)  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 04:51, 27 March 2007 (BST)

Well, there are three different effects between the two cards: 'Play only in Vanilla Dome', 'cannot be destroyed in Vanilla Dome' and 'spawns a Blue Shell'.  I figure any two would be good enough, but which two?  (Or do you think all three would be better?) [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 19:29, 28 March 2007 (BST)

'Play only in Vannila Dome' and 'spawns a blue shell' IMO. [User:BM|BM] 15:14, 30 March 2007 (PST)
:I edited the two together now.  See what you think. [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 03:47, 31 March 2007 (BST)

==== Blue Shell ====
Can you clarify what it means 'you can make your Thing cards invincible'?  Is that a lasting effect, or is it just for one turn? [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 16:38, 3 April 2007 (BST)

It's lasting, but they can't attack. It's supposed to be like hiding under the shell. [[User:BM|BM]] 10:30, 14 April 2007 (BST)

:Right now, Blue Shell is an action with a lasting effect.  This gets really confusing during play.  Should this be a thing that can be destroyed to destroy an enemy?  Should it be played onto what it's making invincible or should it make everything invincible?  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 19:15, 18 April 2007 (BST)

::I made it a Thing and made it so that it only protects one other Thing.  I think that protecting all of your stuff may be too powerful even if you can't use actions while it's out.  Right now, you can still destroy the Blue Shell though.  I'm not sure if that should be possible or not.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 18:02, 20 April 2007 (BST)

==== Caps ====
Should those cards be Things?  Actions with lasting effects can be very confusing.  (I have trouble remembering effects that are only delayed one turn.)  I think it's best to stick to the idea that you can know the whole state of the game by looking at what's currently in play.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 03:00, 20 April 2007 (BST)

Aren't those ''my'' cards. >=*( Oh well. Anyway, I think the whole Power-Up system is confusing. We should probably make it so that Power-ups are their own card, to avoid confusion or Power-Ups/ Special Moves because I don't know what to do, because I wanted the Cap's and all the Other Power-Ups to be the same. If you made a Power-Up Type, things would be easier. Maybe "Only Playable if you have an enemy or other creature in play. --[[User:BM|BM]] 14:59, 20 April 2007 (BST)
:Oops.  Anyway.  I don't know what you mean about the Power-Up system.  There isn't really such a thing as far as I can tell.  Power-Ups are just cards that help you right?  The deal is, both Actions and Things can be Power-Ups.  The main difference is that an Action is something that happens and is done with and a Thing has lasting effects.  Blue Shell and all three Caps have lasting effects, so they should be Things.  Cards like Spade Game and 1-up Mushroom don't, so they're Actions.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 15:20, 20 April 2007 (BST)

:I changed the types (and colors) to Thing.  I also clarified the text a bit.  Hopefully I didn't change the meaning too much.  Specifically, I changed "when this is discarded" to "when this is destroyed" since, to me, discarded means from your hand.  Also, I removed the note in Wing Cap about flying enemies, since that isn't specified anywhere.  If you want, you can mark flying enemies as such and add this back to Wing Cap.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 18:02, 20 April 2007 (BST)

==== Eldstar ====
I hate to keep asking the same questions, but is Eldstar supposed to be an Action or a Thing?  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 17:02, 20 April 2007 (BST)

:I changed it's type to Thing.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 18:02, 20 April 2007 (BST)

==== Other Star Spirits ====
Specifically, it seems like Mamar, Skolar, Klevar and Kalmar are extremely powerful.  For example, using Mamar/Klevar's ability every turn, no enemy could every do anything.  Actually, you wouldn't even have to use it every turn.  Skolar's ability is worse since you could just use it every turn and the opponent wouldn't ever be able to do anything.  Kalmar's isn't so bad, but you can pretty much count on it wiping out all Enemy cards.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 04:25, 21 April 2007 (BST)

I tried to fix things, but I'm not sure if it helped. I made everyone's abilities 'flip a coin' moves and made some other minuscule changes. If we continue to have trouble with these cards, I'll just delete them. Maybe their just too powerful for a card game. --[[User:BM|BM]] 05:23, 21 April 2007 (BST)

:I can't tell if the new versions are too powerful or not, so they're fine for now.  (Whether they are too strong or not will show up in play testing.)  What's the difference in Mamar and Klevar though?  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 06:25, 21 April 2007 (BST)

I made it so the opponent actually has a chance to get the enemies back in play, if you didn't notice. --[[User:BM|BM]] 15:02, 21 April 2007 (BST)

:I meant, 'What is the difference between Mamar's sleep and Klevar's paralysis?' [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 20:58, 21 April 2007 (BST)

I just said ''Sleep'' and ''Paralysis'' so I could make the cards different. The difference is when you can stop it. --[[User:BM|BM]] 23:23, 21 April 2007 (BST)

==== Boomer ====

The way Boomer was written made it really hard to keep up with.  There's absolutely no way I'd be able remember how many turns it's been since it was played.  I rewrote the card to use counters instead.  Let me know if I changed it too much though. [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 21:30, 21 April 2007 (BST)

I changed ''Boomer'' back to ''this card'' so it'll still work as intended if someone played a game with multiple copies of the card.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 06:02, 22 April 2007 (BST)

====Tho-whatever====
Thanks for the name clarification. Don't know how I got it wrong though. Must be 'cause I'm Canadian. Oh well. --[[User:BM|BM]] 22:11, 21 April 2007 (BST)

:I only knew because I was looking up who Thoreau was.  I found it on the Mario Wiki.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 05:12, 22 April 2007 (BST)

==== Dottie ====
This card needs clarification, but I really have no idea what it is it's supposed to do.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 06:02, 22 April 2007 (BST)

On the topic of 'not copying the games too exactly,' you don't have to create a card for every Star Spirit and Pixl.  If necessary, we can just pick a few representatives of each.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 06:28, 22 April 2007 (BST)

Cool, thanks. I thought I should make a card for every major Pixl. (There are some optional ones.) BTW,  in game, Dottie shrinks Mario & co. I'll just go delete her. Maybe I'll add Barry or w.e. 
P.S. Tell me when you get a Wii. --[[User:BM|BM]] 21:29, 22 April 2007 (BST)

:It'll be a while before I get a Wii.  As for Dottie, I sounded like it did something fairly similar to Tanooki Suit, only with a different downside.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 22:27, 22 April 2007 (BST)

==== Flipside ====
By the definition of Locations, no one owns them, so Flipside needs to be reworded.  Also, since the game already requires a six-sided die, you should use that for randomness instead of a coin.  (Evens/odds are also 50/50, as is 3 or less/4 or more.)  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 22:30, 22 April 2007 (BST)

Just so more than one Player can '''use''' the location. Also, would this go in the RPG Deck, or this one? And I like using coins for 50/50 odds, knowing there are other options. I'll change it. --[[User:BM|BM]] 23:01, 23 April 2007 (BST)

Right now, I'm going to put it in the RPG Deck. --[[User:BM|BM]] 23:02, 23 April 2007 (BST)

=== Cards by CashCrazed ===
==== You Forgot the Princess! - Resolved ====
I don't mind a card that can take the game back a level, but it'll likely be a very long time between level ups, and this card might prevent the game from progressing at all.  Can you think of any way of limiting how often it can be played, such as only during the first few rounds after a level up (or something)? [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 15:39, 26 March 2007 (BST)

Since I just changed the game to use personal Levels, this card will probably have to be reworded or, maybe, rewritten. [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 19:38, 26 March 2007 (BST)

:Personal levels? In that case, nobody would want their own level to go down, so perhaps it should only affect someone else's. [[User:CashCrazed|CashCrazed]] 01:22, 27 March 2007 (BST)

:Okay, it only affects the leading player now (assuming personal levels). [[User:CashCrazed|CashCrazed]] 21:28, 30 March 2007 (BST)

==== Glitch - Resolved ====
I like the card, but can you think of a name that better fits the theme?  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 15:39, 26 March 2007 (BST)

:Chance Time, perhaps? That was the Mario Party minigame that mixed up people's stuff. [[User:CashCrazed|CashCrazed]] 01:22, 27 March 2007 (BST)

::That'd probably be alright then.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 04:47, 27 March 2007 (BST)

==== Bonus Round - Resolved ====
Same question as for Glitch.  Maybe it could be called 'Special Road'?  That was a location in Super Mario World (at least AFAIR).  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 15:39, 26 March 2007 (BST)

:As far as I know, the 1up tic-tac-toe level in Super Mario World was called the Bonus Round. But wasn't the Special Stage part of the Star Road? [[User:CashCrazed|CashCrazed]] 01:22, 27 March 2007 (BST)

::Huh.  I don't remeber what that was called, but the Special Road/Zone/whatever is the area past Star Road.  If that was a place in SMW then it'd be fine to leave the name.  It feels like there should be something to prevent Bonus Round from staying in play too long, but that might just be me.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 04:47, 27 March 2007 (BST)

==== Blue Shell - Resolved ====
CashCrazed,
I was the one who referenced the Blue Shell in my card. When I made the Buzzy Beetle card, I was hoping that the Blue Shell would be more like the Blue Shell Power-up from New SMB. Could I change it to something more like 'If your Jump Check is higher than 4, you may destroy an enemy. You may make your Thing cards invinsible, but you may not make any action while your cards are invinsible.' Thanks in advance. [[User:BM|BM]] 15:31, 30 March 2007 (PST)
:I was going with the Mario Kart version where it damages the leader, but since you made the card that references it, you can go ahead and put in what you want. I replaced my Blue Shell with another card. [[User:CashCrazed|CashCrazed]] 00:46, 31 March 2007 (BST)

==== Backtracking - Resolved ====
I took off the 'if there is one' part since Actions can't be played unless there's a Location in play. [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 03:47, 31 March 2007 (BST)

==== Yoshi Wings ====
Same question as with Key Hole.  Should all 'advance to the next level' cards also destroy the Location stack?  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 15:20, 20 April 2007 (BST)

:I added this. [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 18:02, 20 April 2007 (BST)

== Future Cards ==

=== Pipe Maze ===
I think Pipe Maze should shuffle the Location stack if it's destroyed.  I don't know about when another Location is played though (which would cause it to leave play, but not be destroyed).  Also, I don't know what else it should do. [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 19:58, 28 March 2007 (BST)

=== Boat ===

I was considering adding the locations Isle Delfino and Rogueport and making it so that they couldn't be played unless you control the Boat Thing.  I don't think the Boat would really do much by itself (perhaps allowing some small modification of the Location Stack).  Does this sound like a good idea, or do you think it'd be too difficult to play those locations?  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 08:02, 21 April 2007 (BST)

That could work. What if the boat could automatically make someone play Soda Lake. --[[User:BM|BM]] 23:31, 21 April 2007 (BST)

:I don't know.  I suppose it would require some playtesting to make that kind of distinction. [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 05:12, 22 April 2007 (BST)

Actually, I take it back. I don't think forcing someone to play their location on you is very fair. Also, I think a Plane would be better. Or a Boat Action, to take you straight to a place, while directly playing them does nothing. Or, we could get rid of this all together, create an Ocean card that doesn't count towards the total and say on the Rogueport card "This card can only be played if Ocean was played. Though with Ocean in Player A's hand and Rogueport on Player B's hand, you'd have a bunch of pretty useless cards. --[[User:BM|BM]] 22:03, 22 April 2007 (BST)

== Play Testing ==

The deck isn't quite ready for play testing yet, but it's getting close.  These issues still need to be resolved before the deck can be used.  (Feel free to expand this list if you thing of anything.)
*Blue Shell is still undefined.  The card should reference the Blue Shell from New Mario Bros. (I think). 

There are also several issues that will probably only be resolved by play testing.
*The victory condition is fairly rare and may slow the game down too much.
*The issue with global vs. individual Levels is unresolved.
*The balance of Actions, Things, Enemies and Locations needs to be checked.
*The balance of discard/destroy actions to draw actions needs to be checked.
*A concrete decision on the scope of the deck will probably be easier to make after playing the game a couple of times.  (This may have been resolved.)
*Several cards have the potential to be overpowered or underpowered.  This is something to watch for during the first few games.
**These ''might'' be overpowered: You Forgot the Princess!, Bill Blaster, Bob-omb, Minus World
**These ''might'' be underpowered: Starman, Warp Whistle, Bowser

If anyone does play test this deck, list any issues you found somewhere on this page.

:I predict a shortage of cards. You only draw one card a turn, and there's so many cards that cause discards and so few that cause draws that people will probably be sitting around with empty hands most of the time. Also, there's always the online game area on this site for playtesting Dvorak games. I wouldn't mind doing it there. [[User:CashCrazed|CashCrazed]] 21:34, 30 March 2007 (BST)

::Do you mean the [[Dvorak MUSH]]?  I can't find another online play area.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 06:06, 31 March 2007 (BST)

:::Yeah, that's it. Last time I put up a time nobody showed up, but that might just be because I only gave a day's notice, or because the time zone shift made the time awful for people in Europe. But it looks like there's some days already scheduled next week, so let's try then. [[User:CashCrazed|CashCrazed]] 08:34, 31 March 2007 (BST)

::::I'm not sure I'll be able to make it.  I can try though.  (Of course, I've also got to remember to do so, which is a problem for me :) [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 21:43, 31 March 2007 (BST)

Okay, I got a tiny bit of playtesting in. Yoshi is just a bit too overpowered. I got him on the first draw and was able to knock out every single thing the other guy played, well, until he had to leave. Tanooki Suit also seems overpowered to me, since a lot of the actions available come from enemies and it'll be hard to do anything to you. [[User:CashCrazed|CashCrazed]] 02:36, 2 April 2007 (BST)

:Any suggestions?  For Yoshi, I could make it so that you had to use the Yoshi Egg to get him.  As for the Tanooki Suit, I could make it so that enemy actions prevented you from performing actions.  Actually, I'll go ahead and make those changes, but let me know if you have any better ideas, or if these are too much or not enough. [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 07:43, 2 April 2007 (BST)

== Special Rules and Terminology ==

Would it be a good idea to define some special terms for common game mechanics?  (For one thing, what game mechanics are common enough to warrant special terms?)

Two I've thought about are:
* HP <i>n</i> = This enemy comes into play with <i>n</i> counters on it.  If it'd be destroyed, remove a counter instead.  If there are no counters on it, destroy it instead.
* Armor <i>n</i> = This enemy cannot be destroyed by a player whose Jump Check is <i>n</i> or less.  (There's probably a better name for this.)

Right now only Pokey has HP (although Rex and Yux probably would too if they get made), but 1 HP is basically an ordinary enemy.  Lakitu, Boo and Bill Blaster have Armor already.  If we wanted, we could say 0 Armor is default, but this is a little different than the normal enemy (since it's possible to get less than 1 on a Jump Check).

It'd also be possible to abbreviate this even more by making those two into corner values, but I'm not sure if I'd want to do that.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 19:40, 18 April 2007 (BST)

Armor could be a Corner Value, but I think that the amount of enemies in Mario games with 1 HP would probably make it best to have in the card. e.g.


Some examples:

{{card
|title=Goomba
|text=Action: Target player whose last Jump Check was less than 3 must discard a card.
|cornervalue=0
|type=Enemy
|bgcolor=000
|minicard=
}}

{{card
|title=Pokey
|cornervalue=0
|text=Play only in Koopahari Desert. This card has 3 HP.
|type=Enemy
|bgcolor=000
|minicard=
}}

{{card
|title=Lakitu
|type=Enemy
|text='''Action:''' Create a Spiny Token.  This counts as an Enemy with 4 armor.
|cornervalue=5
|bgcolor=000000
}}
<br clear=all>

So it's easier for people to make cards IMHO. Then again, would we really '''''need''''' Armor stats. I mean, Mario isn't really Final Fantasy, every hit does 9999 Super Damage, so the enemies shouldn't need an armor stat. --[[User:BM|BM]] 15:12, 20 April 2007 (BST)
:It's just an abbreviation for a mechanic that already exists in the game.  I fixed the example cards to reflect what is already there.  For example, Pokey had the text: "This card comes into play with 3 counters.  If this card would be destroyed, remove a counter instead.  If there are no counters on this card, destroy it." which is exactly the same as "HP: 3".  Right now, Pokey is the only card with HP.  Like I said though, Lakitu, Boo and Bill Blaster all have Armor ATM.  (Admittedly, Armor isn't the best name for it, but I can't think of a better one.)  The question is, is it worth making this change?  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 15:27, 20 April 2007 (BST)
::Just a thought, but we could push this a little more towards the Mario RPG and Paper Mario style.  There most enemies had HP and a few had armor.  Whether this would be better than the Super Mario World style of things, I don't know.  Any opinions?  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 18:12, 20 April 2007 (BST)

Well, I've played the Paper Mario games, and they really didn't have a very good view on HP. Even the Goombas had like 4/5 HP, but if we're going by Paper Mario/SMRPG it would help you with the Armor problem. Call it DEF, end of story. --[[User:BM|BM]] 23:17, 20 April 2007 (BST)

:I supposed DEF is a better name for it.  So then, the question is, is this worth the change?  In Paper Mario, Goombas may have had 4 HP, but it wasn't hard to do 4 damage in one hit.  I suppose I don't really want to completely change the deck at this point without some serious playtesting though, so I'll put this idea on a back burner for now.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 04:07, 21 April 2007 (BST)

I actually have Super Paper Mario, and I wouldn't mind going to check how many hits it takes to kill a baddie. The question is... what level should should I be at while doing this? Level 1 would not have enough ATK, but level 10 makes most enemies 1 kit K.O.'s. And there's the enemies that you have to use Pixls to kill. YOU DECIDE! --[[User:BM|BM]] 14:59, 21 April 2007 (BST)

:Let's leave that for later.  If, after playtesting, it's decided that enemies die too quickly (or something similar) then we can work out something like an HP/DEF system.  (Or we could even copy the Paper Mario stat set if we wanted to get that complex.)  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 05:12, 22 April 2007 (BST)

==Size!?==
This deck is too big.  It currently has 93 cards, of which only five advance the level and one can cause victory.  Also, the small and limited number of Locations can stop play for a while when the level does advance.  Also, it's increasingly being diluted by cards from specific cards that aren't from the "classic" Mario games.  I think we ought to remove the 20 Paper Mario series cards as well as any others that only apply to a single game besides the core series.  We should also make duplicates of "Save the Princess" and a few cards that are common across many Mario games, such as Super Mushroom and Goomba.  Finally, we should prune out a number of "less-important" cards, until the deck reaches a reasonable size (say, 60 cards).-[[User:Bucky|Bucky]] 07:42, 23 April 2007 (BST)

:Personally, I'd prefer a deck larger than 60 cards, but I do agree that the card balance is off.  We've been discussing alternate Victory Conditions that would make it easier to win.  Plus, there are some more ideas for Location cards.  It's likely that a few important cards may still need duplication, but I'd hold off on that until the victory condition is finalized.  We've agreed that the scope for this game covers any Mario RPG or Platformer, so Paper Mario cards are fine (as long as there aren't too many).  At the moment, I don't want to delete anyone's cards, so for now, I won't worry about the size.  Once some other stuff is fixed, I'll work on card balance.

:Having this many cards makes me think of starting a Mario RPG CCG.  Would anyone be interested in converting some of these or making new cards for such a game?  We'd have to work out a whole new set of victory conditions and special rules too.  If there's any interest, I'll start a new page for it.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 18:01, 23 April 2007 (BST)

::IMO, there ARE too many Paper Mario series cards, especially given that they're all Things.  The deck would benefit if we replaced them with extra copies of useful cards and "classic" cards.  Suggested replacements:Save the Princess x2, Jump x4, Jump Combo x2, Goomba x2, Koopa Troopa x1, Super Mushroom x2, Fire Flower x1, Yoshi's Island x1, Donut Plains x1, Bowser's Castle x2.-[[User:Bucky|Bucky]] 20:11, 23 April 2007 (BST)

:::Well, there probably are too many of certain kinds of cards, but it's not that they're specifically Paper Mario cards.  Also, I'm not sure about duplicating Locations.  I think they work better when they're unique.  There might not be enough of them though.  (Isle Delfino and Rogueport are two locations that could be added.)  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 21:49, 23 April 2007 (BST)

:Actually, I just went ahead and made a new page for the [[Mario RPG CCG deck]].  So let's make the distinction that this deck is based more on the platformers and the other is based more on the RPGs.  Both technically have the same scope though, but this deck should be kept simpler.  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 19:48, 23 April 2007 (BST)

I moved several cards to a 'proposed deletion' section.  I basically kept one of each of the Star Spirits, Pixls and Paper Mario partners.  I won't actually delete the cards until I get some more input though.  (Although, the cards are still in the other set.)  [[User:MagiMaster|MagiMaster]] 18:34, 25 April 2007 (BST)