Difference between revisions of "Talk:Destruction in Dvorak deck"

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"While you are alive, you and other Elfguards wake up together and share information gained from each other's Night abilities." This seems like a thing the Informed Minority does. --[[User:JakeTheWolfie|JakeTheWolfie]] ([[User talk:JakeTheWolfie|talk]]) 23:32, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
"While you are alive, you and other Elfguards wake up together and share information gained from each other's Night abilities." This seems like a thing the Informed Minority does. --[[User:JakeTheWolfie|JakeTheWolfie]] ([[User talk:JakeTheWolfie|talk]]) 23:32, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
:That it does. The Captain is a pretty bad investigator since he outs himself to any mafia he meets, but in exchange he and a friend or two know each other's names.--[[User:ChippyYYZ|ChippyYYZ]] ([[User talk:ChippyYYZ|talk]]) 01:24, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
:That it does. The Captain is a pretty bad investigator since he outs himself to any mafia he meets, but in exchange he and a friend or two know each other's names.--[[User:ChippyYYZ|ChippyYYZ]] ([[User talk:ChippyYYZ|talk]]) 01:24, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
== Design Questions ==
Is the distinction between morning and afternoon necessary? It's weird to call out Morning specifically as being a time that players can say things. If the rules explicitly state that talking is allowed at this time, then talking is implicitly disallowed at other times. Far easier to say "no talking during trials or while asleep" and leave it at that.
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"Whoever has half or more of the ''other players'' voting them becomes the accused" - If half of players vote for one person and half vote for another, each of them would qualify as accused. And if there's an odd number of players, you can have a trial without even a majority (If I'm one of seven remaining players, half of the other six players means three votes). If either of these scenarios is not intended, would recommend this line become "Anyone voted for by more than half of living players becomes accused, beginning a trial."
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"The Moderator tells roles to wake up" Does that mean that the presence of each role is known to everyone? Does the moderator announce "Wake up, Arsonist", thus alerting everyone?
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What is made known? If a player is killed at night, is their role revealed? Do players learn what role(s) killed that person, or maybe something more vague, like the killer's alignment or the cause(s) of death (bullet, sword, magic, fire, suicide, etc.)? If a player is Distracted, do they learn that they were distracted and failed to use their ability (for the sake of abilities with limited uses, I'm deciding this answer is yes)? If a player is attacked and healed, are they told so? If a player attacks someone death immune, do they learn that their target was immune?
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"Revived players will only be revealed if they were revealed ''before death''." (I'm assuming that players killed at night have their roles revealed) So a player killed by the mafia and revived flips their role face-down again because they weren't revealed until after they died? Even though everyone knows who they are now?
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"If there is only one remaining alignment (and no Neutrals prevent the game from ending), the game will end with the last alignment as the winner, along with any Neutrals that achieved their goal." You don't need to define who wins here, since that's described two lines down the page. How about "The game ends when  only one alignment has any living players, not counting any Benign Neutrals."?
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Role Types - I feel like 6 categories is too many. Offensive in particular seems way too narrow. I prefer Town Of Salem's Investigative, Protective, Killing, and Support for Town, plus Killing, Support, and Deception for Mafia.
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"Kill - Kill target player." - oh is that what that means
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"Strongman - This ability cannot be stopped unless another strongman ability stops it." - Stop is not a defined term, so it's hard to interpret this. Can a Strongmanned ability be used when you're Distracted? Can a Strongmanned Doctor Of Philosophy Distract an Escort? I assume a Strongmanned kill ignores both Death Immunity and Healing?
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"Unique - There can only be one of this role at a time." - in a game, or among living players? If the Godfather dies and the Mafioso promotes to Godfather, but the Godfather is revived somehow, there would be double Uniques. Such cases are probably rare enough that Unique only has to mean "There can only be one of this role assigned at the beginning of the game."
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"Frame - Usually on Uninformed Majorities, Any investigative checks on target player will return evil." and<BR>
"Tailor - Usually on Informed Minorities, Any investigative checks on target player will return good." - Good and Evil are not terms. Also, not all investigative checks are created equal. Some of them (Police Person, Captain of the Elfguard) return only either "Informed Minority" or "Not Informed Minority" while others (JoaT and Corrupt Cop) return the target's exact alignment. "Good" and "Evil" don't work there.

Revision as of 04:15, 8 October 2019

New Group Project

What are all of your opinions on this? --JakeTheWolfie (talk) 02:08, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Given that Town of Salem, Throne of Lies, etc. exist already, I'm interested to see what uncharted design space yet exists.--ChippyYYZ (talk) 03:04, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
Have you heard of the Fourm of Lies? More specifically, Grand Idea. --JakeTheWolfie (talk) 06:45, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Jack Of All Trades

Can you use his copy ability repeatedly to store up multiple copied abilities? Also, this should probably only be able to copy Uninformed Majority abilities since otherwise you can not only identify Mafia you target (This is a powerful investigative tool by itself!), but kill them if you copy a Mafia Killer. I like this card though. Your own idea?--ChippyYYZ (talk) 05:19, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Usually referred to as a JOAT. Maybe it should get a 1 shot of Invest, Protect, Kill, And Distract (Or Occupy). Thoughts on this? --JakeTheWolfie (talk) 05:32, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
A slew of single-use abilities sounds good. And I defer to your judgement if you want to change Distract to Occupy across the board.--ChippyYYZ (talk) 05:40, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
What about this current JOAT? --JakeTheWolfie (talk) 05:42, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
Still a fairly capable investigator, and Social should say "target player cannot be lynched tomorrow", and I would also add Visits where appropriate (if you think Visit is a term worth having, which I think it is), but the rework is good.--ChippyYYZ (talk) 07:06, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Role Types

These could use a line of description each. Mostly I'm wanting to know what is meant by "Offensive". Should Escort and Consort be Offensive?--ChippyYYZ (talk) 07:06, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Alignments

The rules seem to use the undefined term "Team" when "Alignment" is meant. And the rules seem to describe Uninformed Majority as an alignment, when it seems to be a type of Alignment. I propose the following clean-up:

Alignments

There can be any number of alignments present in a game. Instead of a card type, Each role has a single alignment and a role type.

There are four categories of alignments: Uninformed Majority, Informed Minority, Neutral Evil, and Benign Neutrals. A non-neutral role's goal is to kill off all players of other alignments except for Benign Neutrals. Neutral roles each have their own unique goal.

All the same information in a fraction of the space. Since you're putting Neutral Killers' goals on their cards, the rules don't need to define their win condition. This wording gets rid of "Team", though your neutral killers both use the undefined term "major faction". Their goals could be shortened to "Kill all other players except Benign Neutrals."--ChippyYYZ (talk) 07:06, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
I love this. Thank you. --JakeTheWolfie (talk) 14:27, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Bodyguard

"...instead of their target." Ain't too good at his job otherwise.--ChippyYYZ (talk) 05:19, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Escort/Consort

Shouldn't they be Offensive? --JakeTheWolfie (talk) 06:28, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

High Elves

"While you are alive, you and other Elfguards wake up together and share information gained from each other's Night abilities." This seems like a thing the Informed Minority does. --JakeTheWolfie (talk) 23:32, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

That it does. The Captain is a pretty bad investigator since he outs himself to any mafia he meets, but in exchange he and a friend or two know each other's names.--ChippyYYZ (talk) 01:24, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Design Questions

Is the distinction between morning and afternoon necessary? It's weird to call out Morning specifically as being a time that players can say things. If the rules explicitly state that talking is allowed at this time, then talking is implicitly disallowed at other times. Far easier to say "no talking during trials or while asleep" and leave it at that.


"Whoever has half or more of the other players voting them becomes the accused" - If half of players vote for one person and half vote for another, each of them would qualify as accused. And if there's an odd number of players, you can have a trial without even a majority (If I'm one of seven remaining players, half of the other six players means three votes). If either of these scenarios is not intended, would recommend this line become "Anyone voted for by more than half of living players becomes accused, beginning a trial."


"The Moderator tells roles to wake up" Does that mean that the presence of each role is known to everyone? Does the moderator announce "Wake up, Arsonist", thus alerting everyone?


What is made known? If a player is killed at night, is their role revealed? Do players learn what role(s) killed that person, or maybe something more vague, like the killer's alignment or the cause(s) of death (bullet, sword, magic, fire, suicide, etc.)? If a player is Distracted, do they learn that they were distracted and failed to use their ability (for the sake of abilities with limited uses, I'm deciding this answer is yes)? If a player is attacked and healed, are they told so? If a player attacks someone death immune, do they learn that their target was immune?


"Revived players will only be revealed if they were revealed before death." (I'm assuming that players killed at night have their roles revealed) So a player killed by the mafia and revived flips their role face-down again because they weren't revealed until after they died? Even though everyone knows who they are now?


"If there is only one remaining alignment (and no Neutrals prevent the game from ending), the game will end with the last alignment as the winner, along with any Neutrals that achieved their goal." You don't need to define who wins here, since that's described two lines down the page. How about "The game ends when only one alignment has any living players, not counting any Benign Neutrals."?


Role Types - I feel like 6 categories is too many. Offensive in particular seems way too narrow. I prefer Town Of Salem's Investigative, Protective, Killing, and Support for Town, plus Killing, Support, and Deception for Mafia.


"Kill - Kill target player." - oh is that what that means


"Strongman - This ability cannot be stopped unless another strongman ability stops it." - Stop is not a defined term, so it's hard to interpret this. Can a Strongmanned ability be used when you're Distracted? Can a Strongmanned Doctor Of Philosophy Distract an Escort? I assume a Strongmanned kill ignores both Death Immunity and Healing?


"Unique - There can only be one of this role at a time." - in a game, or among living players? If the Godfather dies and the Mafioso promotes to Godfather, but the Godfather is revived somehow, there would be double Uniques. Such cases are probably rare enough that Unique only has to mean "There can only be one of this role assigned at the beginning of the game."


"Frame - Usually on Uninformed Majorities, Any investigative checks on target player will return evil." and
"Tailor - Usually on Informed Minorities, Any investigative checks on target player will return good." - Good and Evil are not terms. Also, not all investigative checks are created equal. Some of them (Police Person, Captain of the Elfguard) return only either "Informed Minority" or "Not Informed Minority" while others (JoaT and Corrupt Cop) return the target's exact alignment. "Good" and "Evil" don't work there.